Xbox 360 caps keep failing

[momaka]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

Also definitely recap the power brick or replace it with a working one. At this age, its caps are bound to be in poor shape if they haven't been powered for that long. Also, the Xbox 360 power bricks are known to have issues with caps, so it wouldn't hurt to recap it anyways. Just beware that opening the power brick is quite a task in itself - lots of plates, shields, and components have to be removed to get to the caps sometimes (depends on who made your power brick).

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

What's strange is I had another 203w power supply to compare and they both gave me the same symptoms leading me to believe the console was the main fault. It had problems starting on both of them, and one of the supply's was used regularly and the one that came with the box was never used.

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

I partially disassembled the old PS to see the caps and the ones I could spot looked ok... I would like to take it apart further though just to be sure. Has anyone taken apart an old 203w power supply that knows the proper steps? There seems to be several layers of metal shielding like momaka mentioned. I'm guessinf I need to desolder those points to get the top half of the power supply case to come off so I can see the entire board.

[momaka]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

What's strange is I had another 203w power supply to compare and they both gave me the same symptoms leading me to believe the console was the main fault. It had problems starting on both of them, and one of the supply's was used regularly and the one that came with the box was never used.

Ah okay. In that case, it may be the console indeed. Just replace the remaining caps (all the big ones anyways) in it that you didn't replace before and see if the problem is fixed or persists. I'm curious to see what happens as I haven't seen this particular problem before (as in, console not always working - the bad Chemicon KZJ, Nichicon HZ, and Sanyo WF caps are well known issue now), and I've worked on a lot of 360's.

Has anyone taken apart an old 203w power supply that knows the proper steps? There seems to be several layers of metal shielding

Just remove all the shields you can to get it. I've only opened one many years back and just gave up, as I found another PSU. They are a PITA, but not impossible to open. I think some of these 203W PSUs (depending on who made them - i.e. Delta or LiteOn) have caps under the heatsinks too, but not all of them. For those, you just might have to try and desolder the caps without removing the heatsinks. I've done other power supplies like that before. Very annoying, but doable.

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

Ok I have managed to replace and polymod all of the capacitors that we’re reccomended. I put everything back together and tried powering it on. The first attempt the fans came on and the center green power light came on but the console did not boot. I turned it off, waited a moment, and tried again. The second attempt was a success! I played a game for a few min and tested all components and it seemed to work fine. I’m hoping that the failed first attempt was due to the fact that none of the new caps had a charge and it hung up the first try. I’m not sure though but hopefully it continues to work and boot normally! I will keep using the spare power supply as a test for a while until I tear down the old one

[momaka]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

I’m hoping that the failed first attempt was due to the fact that none of the new caps had a charge and it hung up the first try.

That could be a possible issue if you used some really really old NOS electrolytic caps... but you didn't. So unfortunately, I think the console still has a problem.

I guess, you should just keep using it and see what happens. I simply cannot think of what could cause that problem.

That said, if the console was new when you got it, you should buy another spare Xbox 360 CPU heatsink on eBay (or wherever you can find one cheap) and replace the slim one on the GPU. Of course if you do this, the optical drive will have to be moved outside the Xbox 360 case, and you would also need to mod the fan shroud. But it would be totally worth it, as you will not get an overheating GPU anymore, and that will likely delay the BGA/GPU chip issues with your console for many more years. The only thing that could get in the way is the RAM. But of course, if the GPU chip runs cooler, so will the surround areas near it, and thus so will the RAM. So that's why I recommend the GPU heatsink to CPU heatsink mod/swap. The original GPU heatsink (both v1 without the heatpipe and v2 with the heatpipe) are simply an afterthought. The stock cooling of the Xbox 360 is a joke. I've seen people add more fans inside, but that still won't do anything for an inadequate heatsink. The DVD drive really needs to come out and a proper heatsink mounted on top of the GPU.

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

I installed a thermalright tr360 heatsink and a fan in front of the cpu and some thermal pads for the ram. I won’t really use this console much, just as a cool collectors item. I’m really bummed that I couldn’t resolve the issue however. I guess I’ll just have to power it on twice every time and hope I’m not damaging anything. What are the odds that both power supplies that I’m using could have an issue though? I can’t really see what else could cause this problem on the console.

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

Could one of the MOSFET be a problem?

[Agent24]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

It *could* be, if perhaps one of them has become temperature sensitive for example. Seems unlikely though. I would expect a more obvious failure with a bad MOSFET.

But I suppose you could get a can of freezer spray and start trying to see if you can hunt down anything that might give you a repeatable fault condition. Might be a waste of time though.

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

I have a small fan that I added that I soldered to the 12v and ground spot of the power plug on the underside of the board. Is it possible that it draws too much power on the first startup and it causes the console to hang?

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

It seems like now the problem is worse/more frequent then it was before. Now it takes several tries to fire up. But once the console is on, it works fine and if you turn it back off and back on after it had booted it will work every time. But if you leave it be for a few hours or overnight the problem comes back. I think by changing the caps i have changed the characteristic of the problem without solving it completely. I just wish I knew what I could look for or test something that would cause it to do this. Maybe one of the mosfets was damaged by one of the bad caps. Maybe my fan is drawing too much on startup. I’m not sure where to go next. I really appreciate all the help I’ve been getting on here though. If it weren’t for you guys I’d be still on square one.

[momaka]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

What are the odds that both power supplies that I'm using could have an issue though?

Unlikely.

Could one of the MOSFET be a problem?

Even more unlikely. In fact, I have not seen an Xbox 360 with a bad MOSFET that didn't trip the PSU before (usually accompanied by a buzz and a red light on the PSU brick).

But do try running the Xbox 360 with the covers off and see if any one of the MOSFETs or coils gets much hotter than the others after running the console for 20-30 minutes. Keep the fan shroud on to prevent overheating of the CPU and GPU, and only remove it when checking the temperature.

I have a small fan that I added that I soldered to the 12v and ground spot of the power plug on the underside of the board. Is it possible that it draws too much power on the first startup and it causes the console to hang?

No.

It seems like now the problem is worse/more frequent then it was before. Now it takes several tries to fire up. But once the console is on, it works fine and if you turn it back off and back on after it had booted it will work every time. But if you leave it be for a few hours or overnight the problem comes back.

That sounds a lot more like BGA/GPU die-substrate issues. Unless by some small chance, there is something wrong with one of the phases in the GPU or CPU VRM (i.e. hot MOSFET or coil, as mentioned above, indicating something is marginal there).

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

So it sounds like maybe a cold solder joint under the gpu or cpu somewhere? I wonder why the problem became more apparent after I changed the capacitors? And if one of the coils or mosfets is hot I should just “feel” for one then? I should also mention that after looking into my old power supply I did find a cap that was leaking but not bulged. It’s in a tight spot so I couldn’t tell what it was. I’m considering removing it and seeing if I can find a replacement. All 6 other caps looked ok though.

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

Ok I just played gears of war on it for about 25 or so min and felt around on all of the components after I was done. Nothing felt overly warm or hot besides the heatsinks (obviously). A few of the low voltage capacitors I put in on the cpu vrm felt a little warm, but nothing significant. Is there a possibility the xbox didn’t like the polymer capacitors I put in? I’m really at a loss here. I just don’t understand how this thing could possibly be giving me grief even after I changed everything

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

Another side note I waited about 3hrs and turned it on again and it hung on the boot again, and then on the 2nd attempt it gave me 1red light E74 error 1022. On the 3rd try the console fired right up and worked perfectly. Hope that helps too

[Agent24]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

If you did just find a bad capacitor in the PSU, it might be worth to check\replace all the capacitors in it.

Otherwise, I reckon it's a BGA solder issue, probably caused by thermal cycling after 10 years stored in probably an unregulated environment.

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

That could be, but why did it suddenly get worse when I changed the capacitors? That’s what’s hard to understand

[MaxRocker247]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

And if it was a bga issue wouldn’t the console not work at all? Normally that would brick the system and it wouldn’t do anything but that is the strange thing... it works after a few power cycles. I just wish I could test with a meter somehow and check the components for a short or something. But if it IS the gpu bga would it be advisable to get it reballed?

[Agent24]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

That could be, but why did it suddenly get worse when I changed the capacitors? That's what's hard to understand

A bad connection could be made worse due to the physical handling of the board while working on it.

[momaka]

Re: Xbox 360 caps keep failing

A bad connection could be made worse due to the physical handling of the board while working on it.

^ I second this.

That's not to say that you handled the board roughly or in a bad way. The Xbox 360 GPU is just a little sensitive, as it's built on the same technology as the X1k ATI Radeon -era chips, so naturally it suffers from the same faults/problems as those. Most likely removing and installing the heatsinks was enough to push the GPU chip over the edge.

Moreover, if none of the MOSFETs or coils are too hot, and we already know the problem is not unique to one power adapter, then that really leaves only the BGA and or the actual GPU chip itself. The fact that you are now getting an E74 error is even more indicative of that.

As far as reballing... nah, I don't recommend it. I used to do it daily for a repair show I was working in about 5-6 years back. The owner (my boss) and many other people online claimed that a reballed chip always and completely fixed the problem. But I've seen reballed Xbox 360's come back despite that claim. The truth is, the Xbox 360 GPU is doomed just like the nVidia bumpgate issue with the GeForce 7 and 8 series. The only difference is that with a reflow/reball, those older ATI chips have more of a chance of getting revived again. But the "revival" seems to always only be temporary, in my experience. I've seen reflown Xbox 360's last over 2 years, and I've seen some last only 2 weeks.

That modified heatsink you have on the GPU is not really that much better than the stock. With those small scattered elements with high-density fins, you probably need to have a tiny high-RPM, high-pressure fan on each, to make the heatsink effective. Otherwise it would be just as bad as the original. I've played around quite enough (dare I say even too much) with stock and modified heatsinks on video cards of various TDPs to know what will make a difference and what won't. With the Xbox 360 GPU, you really need a full-sized CPU heatsink to keep it cool. Otherwise, it overheats and dies over time. ATI chips from that era really must be kept under 60C at all times. And even then, they can still die randomly. Starting with the Radeon 9700/9800 and going up to the x100 series, it wasn't uncommon to see ATI chips die even when well cooled. For the X1k generation, they managed to mitigate some of that. But it's really not until the HD2k and HD3k where they finally started making more reliable chips.

So for what it's worth, I think you have a GPU starting to go bad. There's also a small chance it could also be the RAM and not the GPU. Qimonda/Infineon has been most problematic from what I've seen on those Xbox's, but I've also seen Samsung and Nynix fail as well. Not sure what kills it, as these same chips are otherwise pretty reliable on RAM sticks and well-cooled video cards.

Regarding the caps: no, your poly-mod did NOT cause the issue. We've actually modded an Xbox 360 like that many years ago, and it was fine. If you look at the original caps' datasheets and compare them to just about any polymer, you will see that there isn't much difference in specs (other than the capacitance, which doesn't really matter in the GPU and CPU VRMs).

If the problem gets worse to the point where you can no longer use the console, just give it a cheap dirty heatgun reflow and hope that it works again. I Don't even bother with flux on these anymore, as the issue is often not the BGA but the GPU chip itself.