Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

[Jtroutt19]

Hi guys, nice site you have here. Still blows me away about how you can find anything you need to on the web. Anyways, I have a Gateway GT 5034 with the 51GU91 motherboard. Got some bad caps around processor and up by ram slots will have pictures up as soon as possible need opinions on replacements. Just wanted to say Hi. One question though there are open spots on the board that are empty were a cap should go. Just wondering why are there not caps there would love to know. Name is Jon by the way. Thanks in advance for your replies.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

One question though there are open spots on the board that are empty were a cap should go. Just wondering why are there not caps there would love to know. Name is Jon by the way. Thanks in advance for your replies.

Various reasons.

Some boards have a basic footprint that gets used for multiple models as like with/without LAN, or with/without RAID, or even with/without some slot or another. In that case the missing caps are for something the board simply doesn't have. [Very common on OEM boards like Gateway and HP because the actual board builder often offers a more full featured retail board built on the same blank PCB.]

Sometimes the cap position is included in the design phase and then it is found out later on in the development that it isn't needed. It's cheaper to just leave the markings and holes than to create a whole new PCB from scratch.

Other times they want to leave themselves open to using either "more lower grade caps" or "fewer higher grade caps" when it comes time to populate the caps on the board.
.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Thank you very much for your reply, I have read some of your other post and you seem to know your shit. Nice to have knowledgable people to provide some insight. Thanks again.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Here are the pics the last one is my thermaltake power supply. I need recommendations on which ones to replace, with what type should i replace with and should i replace any of the ones that are not bad. Basically if you were doing it which ones would you replace. Thanks guys

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Open a separate thread for the PSU least things get too confusing.
PSU's have a little bit of a different approach anyway...

Basic idea [assuming you don't have an ESR meter, not everyone does this enough to justify owning one] is to replace anything known to cause problems -and- anything that has bloated. Bloated caps are sometimes heat or bad PSU issues or bad application issues rather than poor quality cap issues.

I see bloaters on both the mobo and PSU so there's a good chance a recap will fix things right up.

[I'm going to have to do this in multiple posts because I'm working around other things going on here.]

On the mobo:
First: Remove CMOS battery.
Next inspect all the IC chips [including main chipset chips and MOSFETs etc] for signs of internal damage.
[That is checking for got'cha's that could make a recap a waste of time.]
No visual damage doesn't 100% mean it's good, but visual damage says it's probably bad.
Melting and/or arcing inside a chip will present as shinny spots [on the black plastic casing, from melting inside] or cracks/pits and things like that.

If that all looks good make a cap-map.
You can draw them out but for mobos I prefer to take a photo from straight over-head then blow it up to fill a sheet of paper and print it.
Then I just make my notes on the print-out.
[Doesn't work as well for PSU's because heat-sinks and wires block the view. I often just draw PSU PCBs out life-size for their cap-maps.]
-
On the map.
*** Make sure you mark the polarity of the original caps before you pull them out.
- Not all PCB silk-screens are correct. - Sometimes the polarity is printed backwards for one or some caps.
Then mark at least the uF/volts/diameter/series of any cap you intend to pull.
-
The map sounds lame to some but if you have some caps out and something goes down such that you have to set this aside for a while [even just to catch a TV show] you will be very thankful you made the map when you come back to the project. [It's also sometimes the only way to know the silk-screen is wrong.]

Next up I'll run through what usually needs replaced..
......

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Okay...
-
Usually you can ignore the 4 & 5 mm diameter caps.
If none are bloated then don't worry about them unless you have odd problems later after the other caps are replaced.
These are usually only a problem if they are 85C rated caps and even then it's not that common.
[Same goes for 6mm if they are less than 220uF.]
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Replace all of any kind [brand/series] that has one bloated cap.
If one was pushed over the top then the others probably aren't far behind.
-
Chemicon KZG and KZJ have very high failure rates and don't always bloat.
Best to just replace them.
-
Nichicon HN and HM with date codes for 2001-thru-2004 had a manufacturing error.
Best to just replace them.
-
Chinese and Taiwanese brands are all suspect. No consistently good brand is known.
Best to just replace them.
..

..
Now make your map and a list of what needs replaced.
List: Brand/Series/uF/Volts/Diameter [as a starting point]
From that their ESR and Ripple specs can be looked up in data sheets to make a list of suitable replacements.

- ESR should be the same or less.
- Ripple should be the same or more.
- uF should be the same. If you have to fudge that then go up one value. [Which is ~20%]. [uF goes down as cap's age.]
- Volts should be the same or more unless you know the actual circuit voltage.
[As long as cap's rated voltage is higher than circuit voltage you are good.]
[ON MOTHERBOARDS: 6.3v and 10v caps are interchangeable as the voltages present are 12v [which would not us a 6.3v or 10v cap anyway] or 5v or less [which can use either 6.3v or 10v].]
- And the diameter generally needs to be the same so they physically fit. This you can fudge if there is enough space.
.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Alrighty then thank you i will get on that tonight and post back my findings. Thanks again.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Ok Here is what I got,
6-6.3v 2200uf KZG 10mm Teapo.....1 bad
6-16v 1500uf KZG 10mm Teapo......0 bad
8-6.3v 1000uf SEK 8mm Teapo.......2 bad
6-16v 470uf SEK 8mm Teapo..........0 bad

Thinking maybe just replace all of them since same brand. Would that be correct or is my thinking flawed? And what should i replace with, brand wise. Thanks

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Where are you located? [country]
- helps in suggesting parts sources.
- and that affects what is available as replacements.

Beware of eBay caps.
Probably 90+% of the low ESR caps there are counterfeits and eBay does nothing.
If you want to go there ask us about what you are looking at.

KZG are not Teapo, they are Chemicon.
The mark that looks like a shield is the Chemicon logo.

Always use 105C temp rated caps.
Want ESR the same or less.
Want Ripple the same or more.
-
On motherboards 6.3v and 10v are interchangeable [both are on 5v or less actual voltage] but that isn't always true on other equipment.
Don't lower the caps voltage rating unless you know what the actual voltage is.
Always use caps rated the same or more than the actual circuit voltage.
-
Ideally don't change uF.
If you MUST change uF then go up one standard value [usually ~20%]
That's because uF goes down as caps age.

All those you listed should be replaced but I think you missed some.
- The blue and green ones I can't see well enough in the photo.
The blue look like maybe OST which are notoriously problematic.
The Green one, I can see WNA but that's not ringing a bell right now.

6.3v 2200uf KZG 10x20mm ..... Ripple: 2550 mA ... ESR: 0.013 ohms
16v 1500uf KZG 10x20mm ..... Ripple: 2550 mA ... ESR: 0.013 ohms
Typical equivalent replacements are
Rubycon MBZ, Nichicon HM, Sanyo/Suncon WG, Samxon GD, Panisonic FJ
Some 'one grade up' replacements are
Rubycon MCZ, Nichicon HN, Samxon GC

SEK are not even low ESR but those caps 'should be' low ESR
6.3v 1000uf SEK 8x11.5mm ..... Ripple: 370 mA ... ESR: n/a
16v 470uf SEK 8x11mm ..... Ripple: 310 mA ... ESR: n/a
16v 470uf SEK 8x15mm ..... Ripple: 360 mA ... ESR: n/a
Any 'entry level' or better low ESR caps with better Ripple than those should be fine.
There are too many options to list for that without knowing where you'll buy.
.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

I stand corrected on the chemicon. I did not see a name they are same color as the teapos so i assumed the later. Yes there are 3 ost RLX 6.3 1500uf caps. Not Bloated so assumed good. Will replace if necessary. The WNA is a Samxon 6.3v 1000uf. Im Located in Indiana. Was probably gonna buy of this site or the other one you guys recommend on here. Cannot recall the name at the moment.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

OST often fail without bloating so it's recommended to replace them to avoid 'invisible' bad caps on the board.
[That's any series of OST, not just RLX.]

6.3v 1500uf RLX 8x20mm ..... Ripple: 1650 mA ... ESR: 0.021 ohms
Grade is slightly less than KZG but not 'less enough' for the next lower grade of good caps to be good choices.
So, use the same list as given for KZG.

I'm not familiar with that series of Samxon but I haven't heard anything bad, it's not bloated, and except for a couple of old [and I think now defunct] series Samxon seem to be good caps so you can probably leave that one.
.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

alright thanks alot agian for your help. Ive noticed thought that this site does not carry alot of the ones that you recommended. Like nichicon HM and HN Digikey does, just curious on the difference. And also can you recommend some low ESR's. I just dont want to get the wrong ones. Thanks

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

polymers seem to have the lowest ESR but i noticed that they also have really high ripple. Are these what mobo manufactures call solid state capacitors. Would they work for the replacement of the SEK was looking at the nichicon R7 Series.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Yes, since Rubycon quit making MBZ BCN tends to carry [mostly] only the premium grades of low ESR caps which can put you in a fix when what you really need is middle or low grades.
That said, the variety of caps here has gotten greater, just not so much for the 'ordinary' low ESR grades.
-
For motherboards at least using over-kill caps generally doesn't hurt anything except maybe your wallet.
OTOH, small orders from places like Mouser can squeeze the wallet a bit for the shipping and BCN shipping is pretty cheap.
Same same if you split your order between two places and pay double shipping.
-
It's just where things balance out for you on the specific order that makes one better than the other.

In the US there is also Digikey but they don't carry anything suitable to replace KZG or higher grades of caps.

When I order caps it's usually 20-30 different sizes and I end up ordering from all three places to get what I need.

.

From Badcaps.net these would be my choices.
Showed alternates for some.

16v 1500uf KZG 10x20mm ..... Ripple: 2550 mA ... ESR: 0.013 ohms
1500/16v HZ 10mm [3770 / .007] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...roducts_id=139
1800/16v GC 10mm [3190 / .009] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...roducts_id=126

6.3v 2200uf KZG 10x20mm ..... Ripple: 2550 mA ... ESR: 0.013 ohms
2200/10v MCZ 10mm [3230 / .009] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=32
2200/10v GC 10mm [3190 / .009] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=61


6.3v 1500uf RLX 8x20mm ..... Ripple: 1650 mA ... ESR: 0.021 ohms
1500/10v HZ 8mm [2880 / .009] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...roducts_id=136
1800/6.3v HN 8mm [2220 / .012] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...roducts_id=152

6.3v 1000uf SEK 8mm ..... Ripple: 370 mA ... ESR: n/a
1000/6.3v HM 8mm [1140 / .030] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...roducts_id=131


16v 470uf SEK 8mm ..... Ripple: 310-360 mA ... ESR: n/a
470/16v HN 8mm [1300 / .021] ~ https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...roducts_id=148
[If the actual voltage is not 12v I would use the 8mm ZL 470uF/10v. Would need to check voltage w/DMM.]
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

polymers seem to have the lowest ESR but i noticed that they also have really high ripple. Are these what mobo manufactures call solid state capacitors. Would they work for the replacement of the SEK was looking at the nichicon R7 Series.

High Ripple is good as it's a current limit,,, but:
.. Polymer are totally inappropriate to replace something like SEK.
That would be like having a gold plated fry pan.

There are only two places where poly upgrades are recommended on a lytic board unless you want to trace the circuit and do the math for each cap.
Both places are in the CPU VRM.
VRMs really aren't that much different from one board to another [unlike the rest of a mobo] and that mod has been thoroughly tested by many.
.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Again thanks for the info. Gold plated frying pan huh, love the analogy. These next questions are a little off topic but still thought i would ask. These esr meters and dmm's that your talking about. Are they expensive tools and also can you recommend any reading to further my knowledge on the topics discussed. For instance when you talk about tracing circuits and doing the math for each one. Im wanting to develop a understanding on how these boards work. Thanks for your recommendations also. There are so many choices out there and i did not have the knowledge to make an informed decision. Thank you again. will place order soon.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

Just out of curiosity what would you replace a 1000 uf 10v DON with?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

A DMM is just a Digital MultiMeter.
You can get a basic one about anywhere. [Even Walmart. Not that that's where I'd go.]
A cheapie can be under $5. Good enough for basic things but probably won't be super accurate or last long.
A nice one is probably closer to $75 new and should last years.
[And some people go nutzoid and spend 100's of dollars. If you are that into this stuff then get the $75 one and save up for an o'scope instead.]
Sometimes you can find a very nice one at a yard sale or eBay for cheap.
Off the top of my head Fluke, Beckman, and BK Precision are good brands.
[That's probably because I have one of each. ]

If you are going to be doing caps all the time then an ESR meter and a Capacitance meter are very handy tools.
- If you won't do it much you can get by without.

Capacitance meters are sometimes included as functions in DMMs and ESR meters. On DMMs watch the range though. You should be able to check at least a 4700uF cap and often the capacitance meters in DMMs don't go that high. Same-same with some cheap capacitance only meters. Check the range before you buy.
Mine are old BK Precision models from the '70's & '80's [I think] and they still work well enough. Model numbers are variants of 810, 820, 830.
Sometimes they show up on eBay.
That's just what I have. There are other good ones.

An ESR meter is basically a resistance meter but it checks resistance with a 100 kHz AC test voltage instead of with a DC test voltage as a standard resistance meter does. A cap might be fine on DC but hosed on AC [or vice versa] so you have to check both to be sure it's okay. [Note: Some ESR meters use frequencies other than 100 kHz. You want one that uses 100 kHz because that's what is used in data sheets.]
I paid $70 for mine several years ago [as a kit] and I think they run about $85 now in the kit form.

The math is all online these days.
Look at the math for LC filters [including PI filters] and that will give you a good intro to what I was talking about.
Other than in the VRM, Mobos don't usually have a heck of a lot of LC filters for the big caps but sometimes there are some so you should check if you are changing anything to do with cap values.
In other things [especially PSUs] there can be many filters.

Tips:
-
You calculate series and parallel ESR the same as resistance for resistors.
There are calculators on-line for resistors and they work for ESR.
Parallel comes up when working with CPU VRMs. - Which is often.
Also sometimes in PSUs where they used 3 cap PI filters. [2 caps on one side of the coil and 1 on the other side.]
-
Bear in mind that a lot of formulas you'll find for filters use Xc [Capacitive Reactance] when they should use total Impedance [Z]. That's because they teach filters in schools at RF frequencies where ESR and ESL are nill so they disregard them and assume Z = Xc for a cap. Unfortunately often that's all they remember after school.
- At 100 kHz it's different than at RF.
At around 100 kHz the Xc and ESL cancel each other out such that Z = ESR.
[The formula is attached because I dunno how to do the square-root symbol needed.]
So, when you do the 'filter math' for 100 kHz [the typical Ripple frequency from an SMPS] you should be using ESR [which = Z] instead of Xc.
.
Notes on the equation.
-
The (ESL - Xc) is always zero or a positive value. Thus (Xc - ESL) is the same thing.
Might see it written either way.
-
ESL is sometimes called [written as] XL in the equation but in the case of a cap it's an 'Equivalent' Series Inductance like ESR is an 'Equivalent' Series Resistance so ESL is the proper term.
-
That equation is also why some data sheets say Impedance or 'Z' instead of ESR.
Since it is given at 100kHz the Z = ESR.
.

[Jtroutt19]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

What would an oscilloscope allow someone to do.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Gateway gt 5034 (51GU01 Motherboard)

A lot of things actually but I was thinking specifically of being able to see how much Ripple is in a live running circuit.
You can't fully test a PSU if you can't measure the Ripple in the output.
It's also a way to check how well a VRM is working.
.