An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

[RJARRRPCGP]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

I think the reason they DRMed it was so they could charge for a downloadable PDF version, which they do. All about the benjamins!

Yes, sir!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

So I'm reading up on the surge suppressors and lightning protectors. Mine are installed in panel positions 16 and 18.

Aren't they supposed to be installed in panel 1 and 3? Also, mine are installed in a 15-amp double pole breaker. For the Leviton ones I was looking at, it says NEVER use a double pole. Both my surge suppressor and lightning protectors are wired in tandem.

To me, if I understand how they work, it'd make much more sense to them to be first in line, not all the way in the middle there. I think that's a mistake the installers made.

I also see they have these surge suppression receptacles. Are these worth the buy if I find tamper proof ones? Can't seem to find gfci / surge suppression / tamper proof 20-amp receptacles, but I can find surge suppression / tamper proof 20-amp receptacles. If I'm going to replace all the breakers (except the main 200-amp one) in my Square D panel with GFCI ones, I think perhaps I should be looking at the surge suppression / tamper proof 20-amp receptacles, instead of the GFCI tamper proof ones.

What do you guys think?

I was also looking at some of the 200-amp Leviton panels they have and some are nice looking. White breakers, white panel....really has a very classy look to them. Anyone have any experience with Leviton panels? If I'm reading it right, you don't hook the wires to the breaker. You hook it to the panel instead. A bit different, but if I ever replace my panel, I could get one of them, and do all the rough wiring and when it comes time for inspection, once I pass, just put in the breakers and away we go.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

surge suppressors eventually short out, you need visual indication of if they have failed.
watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQXecTM8yuo

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

surge suppressors eventually short out, you need visual indication of if they have failed.
watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQXecTM8yuo

Yes, I know that, but that doesn't answer my question. Shouldn't they be first in line, before all the other breakers? If I understand AC, it's going to go straight down the other circuits, damaging stuff, before it finally hits the surge suppressor / lightning protector installed half way down the panel....

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

i doubt it matters

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

I would think it'd travel down the first branches first, damaging whatever, before it finally met the devices which absorbed the rest of it. But you don't think having it anywheres would be okay?

I know with the ones I was looking at, it specifically said they had to be installed in 1 and 2 slots of the panel. That's what made me start questioning it.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

well ideally they would be the first thing after the isolator switches.
but if your using solid bussbar then the difference in resistance is minimal.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

about those fucking wire-nuts:
how about these??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8gLG6c-iKc

[kaboom]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

about those fucking wire-nuts:

No problem if ya twist first. They call it "pre-twisting" nowadays; supposedly you can put the wires in loose, twist the cap and like magic the splice is made up.

No way! It was my understanding that you always twist first, making a solid connection, then cap it.

Making "pretwisting optional" had to be one of those UL/NEC bribe passes, like backstabbing, to make poor workmanship (no twisting?!) acceptable. Y'know, cheeper to build those tract houses, which exists as speculation devices. "We'll speculate that so many get underwater with them, tax them penniless, and convince them it's the good life."

But I digress, that's for another thread...

how about these??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8gLG6c-iKc

Good for inside of equipment, with connections to internal "modules" or other sub-assemblies.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

about those fucking wire-nuts:
how about these??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8gLG6c-iKc

Are those safer than the wire nuts? I like them. They're aesthetically pleasing as well, in my opinion. Plus, I wouldn't have to worry about twisting three wires together to ground a box (granted, that's my choice, because I think it looks nicer, I know how to ground the box and receptacle with using just the one bare wire and using no pigtails).


For our house....good news and sad. I bought a Bosch impact driver, two actually, in a kit from Lowes or Home Depot (wife picked them up). Something like 1,200 inch pounds. Using a flat head, I was able to remove the extremely striped buss bar lug.

We bought a bunch of grounding buss bar kits and are replacing all of the striped ones. Any damage at all, it goes. I still don't have a torque wrench, but I see Klein Tools makes one. It's around 320$ish, so it'll have to wait a while.

Anyway, I was tracing some the wires and I notice something odd. I was like hrmm, why is my 12/2 thicker than their 12/2? That don't look like 12/2! The electrician ran 12/2 to the top of the panel, in the front, but in the back, tucked away, sure enough, 14/2, going to 20-amp breakers.

Even if it's 12/2 going to a 20-amp, some where's, almost always, it connects into 14/2, then back to 12/2 before it hits the receptacle or switch. Got 1,000 foot spool of 12/2. Wish I had a good wire tracer. I see Home Depot sells one, but it's in the networking section. It might work, I dunno. Around 70$. It says it works with deenergized AC wires. It's a probe and tone kit, so you hook the tone generator part up to the one wire, and use the probe to trace it. Can it detect it through drywall and 8" - 10" away? I dunno. I hope.

Inspector admitted he doesn't actually inspect the electrician's work anymore because the guy always passed. I think that's kinda b.s., especially because the electrician seemed to be training someone.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

No problem if ya twist first. They call it "pre-twisting" nowadays; supposedly you can put the wires in loose, twist the cap and like magic the splice is made up.

No way! It was my understanding that you always twist first, making a solid connection, then cap it.

Making "pretwisting optional" had to be one of those UL/NEC bribe passes, like backstabbing, to make poor workmanship (no twisting?!) acceptable. Y'know, cheeper to build those tract houses, which exists as speculation devices. "We'll speculate that so many get underwater with them, tax them penniless, and convince them it's the good life."

But I digress, that's for another thread...



Good for inside of equipment, with connections to internal "modules" or other sub-assemblies.

I've never heard of people not pre-twisting before. Never really read the instructions on the wire nuts, just made sure they were compatible for what I wanted. I just always assumed everyone pre-twisted, and some pre-twisted and then soldered, then wire-nutted.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

Are those safer than the wire nuts? I like them.

yes, and you can inspect or undo them!

Anyway, I was tracing some the wires and I notice something odd. I was like hrmm, why is my 12/2 thicker than their 12/2? That don't look like 12/2! The electrician ran 12/2 to the top of the panel, in the front, but in the back, tucked away, sure enough, 14/2, going to 20-amp breakers.

Even if it's 12/2 going to a 20-amp, some where's, almost always, it connects into 14/2, then back to 12/2 before it hits the receptacle or switch. Got 1,000 foot spool of 12/2. Wish I had a good wire tracer. I see Home Depot sells one, but it's in the networking section. It might work, I dunno. Around 70$. It says it works with deenergized AC wires. It's a probe and tone kit, so you hook the tone generator part up to the one wire, and use the probe to trace it. Can it detect it through drywall and 8" - 10" away? I dunno. I hope.

Inspector admitted he doesn't actually inspect the electrician's work anymore because the guy always passed. I think that's kinda b.s., especially because the electrician seemed to be training someone.

that sounds like fraud and someone is liable - even if it's the "inspector" who didnt!!

[eccerr0r]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

Other thing too, not sure if people make right hand or left hand twists before using a wire nut.

Now which is the correct way to twist the wires together before using a right hand wire nut...

[petehall347]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

Other thing too, not sure if people make right hand or left hand twists before using a wire nut.

Now which is the correct way to twist the wires together before using a right hand wire nut...

there is a right way and a left way

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

yes, and you can inspect or undo them!

I'm going to find a place to buy some and give them a shot. I'm guessing just like wire nuts, they're gauge sensitive. For example, if I have four 12 AWG solid copper wires I've twisted and now want to put a wire nut on, I'd use a big red one that says it can handle 4 12 AWG solid wires...or 3 10AWG...

that sounds like fraud and someone is liable - even if it's the "inspector" who didnt!!

Turns out it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought. Only 5 wires where 14/2, and one was actually running to 15-amp. The other four, I've replaced now with 12/2.

Yes, it's definitely an issue. Personally though, I blame the previous owners who just did the work, without getting a permit and having it inspected. That would have been caught.

We bought the 1,000 foot spool of 12/2 AWG to try and reroute a lot of the wires, to provide a clear path in the basement at least to the rack. Nothing we can really do with the wires behind the walls without spending a LOT of money and time.

In the basement though, there's unneeded junction boxes, very old black wire that doesn't list it's gauge at all, wires that can be ran a more efficient way, etc. That's what the 1,000 foot spool is for.

Just wish I had a nice wire tracer made for tracing AC wires (not just detecting them, but actually tracing them, like the probe and tone generator) and a spool holder that can hold over 100lbs. It'd make running the Romex a heck of a lot easier...

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

when i was running long coax we made a spool holder from a section of ally "U" and a couple of rollers the reel sat on.

for tracing there is a comercial thing used to trace cables under the street you may find used on ebay.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

when i was running long coax we made a spool holder from a section of ally "U" and a couple of rollers the reel sat on.

for tracing there is a comercial thing used to trace cables under the street you may find used on ebay.

You got pictures of it? Was thinking of building something with wheels for coax, romax, and ethernet, where I can switch the spools when needed.

I want something that prevents the spool from spinning unless I'm pulling on it though, and having a hard time visualizing a way to do that.

For our 200-amp Square D panel (I see numbers like V-2813, HOMC42UC), I believe the HOMC42UC is the panel cover...I noticed I can use plug-on-neutral GFCI / Arc Fault circuit breakers.

The neutral buss bars line up perfectly and they just snap over the whole bar, including the lug. However, I'm not 100% certain this is a plug-on-neutral panel. Because the breakers are actually making contact with the buss bar like they do on the plug-on-neutral, would this be considered safe?

It is my understanding that if it's NOT meant for plug-on-neutral breakers, I shouldn't physically be able to install them. That's from a Schnieder (or whoever owns Square D)'s website, with a video on how to tell the difference. The only difference I can see from their plug-on-neutral panel and mine is mine has lugs, there's don't. They just got a straight buss bar with no tapped holes for the lugs, like mine has, nor do they have holes going through the side for the grounding wire, like mine does.

I'd like to use the plug-on-neutral breakers instead of the ones with the pig-tails, if I can. Exact same price, but looks a bit nicer in my opinion.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

the roller is long gone, it was like the rolling road used to test brakes at a garage - the cable drum just sat on it.
it was just a scaled down version of a trailer used by the power company.

search "cable drum roller"

like these:
http://www.wctproducts.com/products/...ixed-width.php
https://www.adeptdirect.com.au/produ...m-drum-roller/

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

the roller is long gone, it was like the rolling road used to test brakes at a garage - the cable drum just sat on it.
it was just a scaled down version of a trailer used by the power company.

search "cable drum roller"

like these:
http://www.wctproducts.com/products/...ixed-width.php
https://www.adeptdirect.com.au/produ...m-drum-roller/

I see now.

I was picturing something that had a square base, on wheels, that locked, and two bars coming up, one on each side. A removeable bar in the middle where the spindle would sit.

I think the rollers would be easier to make and just as effective.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

the rollers are best, because like you pointed out - the central spindle design is prone to inertial unraveling of the wire.

fucking expensive for such a simple thing though!