Suggested Caps for Xbox360

[iacomus]

Hi,

I recently attempted to reflow my xbox360 motherboard with a heat gun. I tried to protect the capacitors with foil but unfortunately some of the capacitors became too hot. Several capacitors are now bulging slightly and one of them appears to have vented just a little at the top (thankfully it didn't overspill on to the motherboard).

To be on the safe side, I'd like to replace these capacitors but I've found it very difficult to source the original Rubycon capacitors in the UK.

I'd be very grateful for suggested alternatives to these capacitors, as well as where I could buy such the alternatives on the internet.

The capacitors in question are:

(1)
Brand: Rubycon
Series: YXG (3M0747)
Capacitance: 220uf
Rated voltage: 10V
Temperature: 105 deg. C

(2)
Brand: Rubycon
Series: MFZ (T0752)
Capacitance: 820uf
Rated voltage: 6.3V
Temperature: 105 deg. C

(3)
Brand: Rubycon
Series: VZ(M) (B0802)
Capacitance: 100uf
Rated voltage: 16V
Temperature: 105 deg. C

(4)
Brand: Rubycon
Series: MCZ (T0752)
Capacitance: 1500uf
Rated voltage: 16v
Temperature: 105 deg. C

Many thanks.

[brethin]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

I would never do a reflow without removing all the caps on anything.

Cooking at 210 and caps rated at 105 (if you are lucky) = popcorn.

[mockingbird]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

There's no need to reflow. Clamp fix works well enough.

Rubycon MFZ and MCZ replace with Nichicon HZ series (Thanks PCBONEZ). Don't buy MFZ or MCZ off eBay, they are most likely fake.

Rubycon YXG and Nichicon VZ you can replace with any low esr cap like UCC KZE. Which Xbox do you have? A Xeon or a Falcon? The Xeons have the yellow polymer caps, the Falcons do not.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

I haven't had one of those but from what I've heard about their heat issues if you want it around a long time I would switch anything possible to poly.

Even if you can't find poly for all of them at least you will have less to do next time it needs caps.
.

[mockingbird]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Yes, the GPU gets very hot, but there are several mods you can do. The sites show that you can extend the shroud over the GPU heatsink, but they showed it with paper. I did it with metal.

I've been toying with the idea of dumping the bios and then modifying the parameters so that the fans spin faster at lower temperatures. Much more elegant than the fan voltage modification. The problem is that the JTAG guides seem contradictory and unclear.

[Toasty]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Use the Talismoon Whisper fans, they move more air (+50%) at the lower voltage. Invest in the newer heat-pipe heat sink for the GPU. Many used ones to be had for < $10. Don't waste money on "new".

Poly modding that is a good idea, but any mobo VRM qualified caps will do just fine.

Nichicon HZ, HN
Rubycon MCZ
Samxon GA, GC

I've been toying with the idea of dumping the bios and then modifying the parameters so that the fans spin faster at lower temperatures. Much more elegant than the fan voltage modification. The problem is that the JTAG guides seem contradictory and unclear.

Very interested as to your findings and experiment. They couldn't make it easy by including an external thermistor.

Toast

[mockingbird]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Use the Talismoon Whisper fans, they move more air (+50%) at the lower voltage. Invest in the newer heat-pipe heat sink for the GPU. Many used ones to be had for < $10. Don't waste money on "new".

The talismoon fans are garbage. The Delta fans are the best fans that came with the Xenons, the Nidec fans are not as good (I was surprised to read it because Nidec is usually highly rated). I've got the Deltas.

Very interested as to your findings and experiment. They couldn't make it easy by including an external thermistor.

I got this idea from someone at the Xbox-Scene forums. I wonder why people are doing the crude voltage hack and not this. Maybe it's because of the complexities of Jtagging.

I've also got a PS2 in the meantime, and I want to buy the expansion bay adapter (network card) so that I can dump a 500gb PATA drive in there and play all the games straight from the HDD.

[Toasty]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Yes, the Talismoon's are noisy compared to the Delta's. The box I'm working on has the Delta's. Side by side at the same voltage, 6v, the Talismoon one does move more air, but is noticeably louder than the OEM Delta's. At 10v, it's a night and day difference in decibels. -- The Talismoon's are going back. Note that these are the Whisper not the newer WhisperMAX variety.

Now I'm wondering if building the air channels will be enough with the Delta's...? Perhaps a booster fan inside???

Back to the Poly-mod:

Typically you can reduce the uF rating by 1/2, so a 1500uF is replaced by a 820uF.
Because the cap is 16 volt, I would stay at that rating unless you can verify the voltage on the cap in most circumstances never rises to that level. The next step down is 10v so a maximum of 8 volts would allow a 10 volt cap there. Nichicon LG series would be good.

-BUT- You're not going to replace just one out of 8 or so, you need to do them all.

If you just want the 4 caps you listed and get on with it, then any mentioned here are excellent.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Back to the Poly-mod:

Typically you can reduce the uF rating by 1/2, so a 1500uF is replaced by a 820uF.

This thumb rule comes from a document that only applies to VRM's.
-
People are applying it to all poly upgrades and there is no basis for saying it's okay outside of a VRM.
-
You might get lucky and this other circuit doesn't need the bulk capacitance, but then again you might not get lucky.
-
As a VRM is basically a DC-DC converter by way of a MOSFET based SMPS I would consider that rule to apply to any such circuit, but make sure the circuit is such a circuit.
.

[Toasty]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

The areas surrounding the GPU/CPU are nothing if not multiple VRM's at least in appearance. The entire board is built around those 2 chips and proceeding from that perspective, I would conclude that these 'apparent' VRM's are exactly that.

There are 12 pairs of MOSFETs, with 7 toroids amongst them. 4 of the yellow Fujitsu polys (820uF/4v) are already hooked to 2 of the MOSFET pairs. Aside from the polys there are an additional 14 HZ series caps with 2 of the polys in one bank of 6 behind the GPU.

It's hot, miserable conditions for caps and is compounded by terrible ventilation. Then they take the preheated air from within the case and proceed to draw it across already stressed GPU/CPU, instead of providing them their own fresh air supply.

MS should be taken to the woodshed.



.

.

Toast

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Can I cut the switch?
I have some 2x4's out back...
.

[iacomus]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Thanks for the wealth of information... far more than I was expecting! Definitely given me food for thought... as well as raised some more questions!

I have the Falcon board, would it be worthwhile replacing the stock cooling?

I'm intrigued by the idea of switching to polys. Reading the forums, switching to poly seems the way to go. From what I gather, if I do switch then I must change all lytics to polys... What are the pro's and con's of making the switch? Is it worth doing for an xbox360?

In the event that I stick with the lytics, I'm thinking of changing the YXG's and VZ(M)'s with Panasonic FM's. I've heard that the FM's are good, but the choice is also based on the fact that I can easily source them where I live. [On a side note, my VZ(M)'s definitely say Rubycon on them, but the only info I can find on the net is for Nichicon VZ(M)'s]

[goldencloud]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

The best you can do would probably just to replace the fans with better ones and there is a mod you can do to the fanshroud/heatsinks that will make sure more airflow is drawn through, which will keep the temps down.

Also I have to recommend removing those X-clamps, if you haven't done so already.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Thanks for the wealth of information... far more than I was expecting! Definitely given me food for thought... as well as raised some more questions!

I have the Falcon board, would it be worthwhile replacing the stock cooling?

I'm intrigued by the idea of switching to polys. Reading the forums, switching to poly seems the way to go. From what I gather, if I do switch then I must change all lytics to polys... What are the pro's and con's of making the switch? Is it worth doing for an xbox360?

In the event that I stick with the lytics, I'm thinking of changing the YXG's and VZ(M)'s with Panasonic FM's. I've heard that the FM's are good, but the choice is also based on the fact that I can easily source them where I live. [On a side note, my VZ(M)'s definitely say Rubycon on them, but the only info I can find on the net is for Nichicon VZ(M)'s]

"Rubycon" VZ sounds fishy. - May be counterfeit.

Can you upload some good photos of those when you get them out please.
Both sides, top, bottom.

Thanks.

[stj]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

50% of your airflow slams into the grill at the back, jigsaw it out for less noise and more flow.

talismoon are best - they are louder because they are doing more.
too loud for you? tough - the box is badly designed - the gpu needs a cpu size heatsink, but cant because some microsoft fuckhead put the dvd over it.

as for clamps, they only work for a while - they warp the board in the end.

i work with a guy doing these shitboxes and we'v done many hundreds - flux assisted reflow is the only real fix,
and full-speed fans & some ducting or remoting/removing the dvd and putting a cpu heatsink on the gpu are the only way to keep them fixed.

[Toasty]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

I'm intrigued by the idea of switching to polys. Reading the forums, switching to poly seems the way to go. From what I gather, if I do switch then I must change all lytics to polys... What are the pro's and con's of making the switch? Is it worth doing for an xbox360?

You can mix polys in with others as PCBONEZ said, bulk capacitance may be needed here. ~BUT~ In the airstream behind the GPU/CPU I would do all polys. The pros are that you'll likely never have to worry about caps again. The cons are that it's a lot of work and needs some research on your part for the correct items.

Would you post a few shots of the board please? Top down (no glare) and a couple angle so we can see what is where?

...In the event that I stick with the lytics, I'm thinking of changing the YXG's and VZ(M)'s with Panasonic FM's. I've heard that the FM's are good, but the choice is also based on the fact that I can easily source them where I live. [On a side note, my VZ(M)'s definitely say Rubycon on them, but the only info I can find on the net is for Nichicon VZ(M)'s]

I would not recommend FM's in several areas. As I said before, HZ or similar grade if non-poly electrolytics. FM's are not VRM 'qualified'. In a pinch, yes. Long term, no.

[kc8adu]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

You can mix polys in with others as PCBONEZ said, bulk capacitance may be needed here. ~BUT~ In the airstream behind the GPU/CPU I would do all polys. The pros are that you'll likely never have to worry about caps again. The cons are that it's a lot of work and needs some research on your part for the correct items.

Would you post a few shots of the board please? Top down (no glare) and a couple angle so we can see what is where?



I would not recommend FM's in several areas. As I said before, HZ or similar grade if non-poly electrolytics. FM's are not VRM 'qualified'. In a pinch, yes. Long term, no.

fm are nowhere near good enough for modern cpu vrm duty.ok on old stuff.
if i were to go to the trouble it would be polys all the way.

[mockingbird]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

[On a side note, my VZ(M)'s definitely say Rubycon on them, but the only info I can find on the net is for Nichicon VZ(M)'s]

Interesting. The reason why I corrected you with Nichicon is because I have a motherboard here with Nichicon VR(M), maybe you're correct.

So this is an interesting topic long deserving attention... Toasty, you claim that all the caps are VRM. This would mean I could halve the uF. I'd love to get rid of those Rubycon MFZs and replace them with polymer caps and also the Fujitsus. It would give me peace of mind. I'm always feeling nervous when I play Forza 3 and timing my sessions.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

The Fujitsus are already polymer.

[mockingbird]

Re: Suggested Caps for Xbox360

Yea but when I found this, the box showed signs that it had been opened before. So who knows what kind of things the previous owner may have done. Perhaps something ingenious such as the towel oven trick. The only way to know would be to desolder the Fujis and test their ESR. Besides, from what I understand, they are on the lower quality end of the polymer caps. I've got some server grade Sanyo OSCON (SEPC I think) I can replace them with, I'm just short one, otherwise I would have done it when I had the thing open.