Yet another BGA machine dream

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

As far as i know, a profile has 4 zones. Preheat, soak, reflow and cooldown. I try to respect the following:

Take the board to 150C using bottom heater only.
Turn on the top heat and bring the chip to the melting point of solder (183 for lead, 217 for lead-free) within 40-50 seconds.
Hold at that temperature for 20-30 seconds.
Ramp up the top heat to peak at 210C for leaded and 230-245 for lead-free, maximum 15 seconds to peak temperature.
Turn off all heat and allow to cool. Also turn on the fan on your station at this point if it has one.

These readings are taken with 2 thermocouples, one right next to the chip and one on top of the die. Temperatures reported by the two TCs should match within 5-10C max.

That's what i've been always using and it works great. Also make sure that you don't keep the chip above 220C for more than 30 seconds total or it's likely to die. At 230C you must be able to remove any lead-free chip.

However, some chips require slight levering with a sharp pair of tweezers to break free from epoxy that's made its way underneath. That's an art in itself..

Note that i don't have "profiles", my hands on the controls make the profiles. And remember that i'm using hot air so YMMV.

[sparker1]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

Great stuff. thanks to everybody. Will post some pictures of my first go in a few weeks.

[xboxhaxorz]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

As with anything you get watcha pay for. Tons of people cheap out and get IR6000s, SMT rework stations etc; and dont get the results they want then they complain and say that reflowing is crap and a reball is needed but the entire time it was the equipment and profile

The folks at BGAMods are biased towards certain machines that they sell and they do not allow links to machines that they do not sell, so they dont have your best interest in mind

Also having the machine is only half the battle, you need a profile as well and the simplest way to compare it is to say that you cant drive stick but you buy a ferrari

The car is essentially useless at that point till you learn stick

This covers profile development very well http://www.thebgareworkmachine.com/r...e-development/

I have upgraded my rework station 4 times and now utilize a fully automated model, but whichever machine you do choose make sure it has Elstein heaters otherwise you will end up spending another $400 upgrading

[xboxhaxorz]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

As far as i know, a profile has 4 zones. Preheat, soak, reflow and cooldown. I try to respect the following:

That's what i've been always using and it works great. Also make sure that you don't keep the chip above 220C for more than 30 seconds total or it's likely to die. At 230C you must be able to remove any lead-free chip.

That is right 4 zones, but the profile can have many stages within those zones, some may have 4 while others can have 9 its all dependent on the chip

In regards to the temp, its actually recommended to take the chip to around 240c but to make sure the package temp does not exceed that and the dwell time is between 30 to 90, if its less than that the joint will not be as strong

[xboxhaxorz]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

i agree. those machine are cheap. and keep in mind that after buy a good bga machine, ull need 5-6 months of practice and excersise to get first success.

add also more money to extra component (flux, bga ball wave, stencil etc etc )for another 700€extra.

If learning yourself then yes it can take that long, but many companies who spend the money on machines cant afford to wait that long, i have trained many technicians and they have success in much less time than that

The kit is less than a hundred bucks

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BGA-Rework-R...item2327fb3bf0

[xboxhaxorz]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

I've done a lot of research and reading, including bgamods.com. Some people seem to manage with cheap ACHI6000"s or home made simple stuff coddled together and so on but long term maybe their repairs are not viable; it's hard to tell. Some guys on this forum recommend making your own equipment from scratch and others keep advising to go up market on more expensive manufactured machines. I am leaning towards buying an existing machine - a scotle IR6000 (Scotle now own ACHI as well). That machine is an upgraded ACHI and Scotle seem to have a good reputation. I could try and build my own but I think I would just give myself more headaches getting it to work properly. I would hate to go through all the trouble of reballing half a dozen motherboards just to find out later that the repairs were only temporary. That would be the worst outcome for everybody and I can do that already with my hot air station. Since it is only a hobby I can't spend much but I don't want to waste what I have saved up either. I want to enjoy the work too. All in all if I have to spend more time learning on a crap machine that will be part of the price I pay for going cheap. From what I am told the machine should be able to do the job but will need lots of finesse and maybe an upgrade to some components. I have the time to learn so that is part of the reason for a low cost machine. Thanks guys for all your thoughts. I think I'll give it a go.

Im glad you did your research, anybody can MANAGE with anything but you are spot on their results will vary and may not be reliable

Now yes its fun and cheaper to build your own machine, i wanted to as well but i suck at metal cutting and welding so er thats not going to work, there are tons of guides and helpful people but wiring up the controllers etc; is not as easy as you may think unless of course the guys at badcaps take you step by step

Scotle has a decent reputation, they are popular yes but they are not great when it comes to quality

If you are looking for an affordable machine, then yes that will work for you but if you want a quality machine there are options

The jovy 8500 is a great machine, probably the best out of the Chinese models

http://www.thebgareworkmachine.com/ is a great machine made in USA and you want to know the best part, its made in USA lol so that means you can call them and speak to a person that has no accent haha

Now i understand that you are new to reworking, the hard and cheap way is to buy an affordable machine and learn on your own and if something breaks oh well too bad

The easy way which is a bit pricier is get a great quality machine and if something breaks, call them up and they will troubleshoot with you over the phone

Try this forum for more bga related help http://www.bgareworkforum.com/

[ktmmotocross]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

that forum have 8 topics im the WHOLE FORUM!

And your KIT have real cost 50$

[senchire]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

And if you go really cheap (talking to the guy who said 700E for "extra components"). You can get for under 100$ everything + over 150 stencils which cover up most of the chips. Don't give the OP wrong informations.

[ktmmotocross]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

452 stencils for 77$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Latest-459pc...item27cb2178bd

[cyberhack]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

Use them the right way up guess how I found out, one side is tapered to hold the balls in

[Deusjevoo]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

Curious for those tapered stencils.
Tapered are for use with solder paste normally.

Like the one used here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqRT6KaMubk

All reball stencills I have seen are just straight holes.

[sparker1]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

It arrived much faster than I expected. I haven't got all the other stuff yet but they're on the way. I have been busy testing profiles etc. and having good success removing components. I did the paper test suggested by The Unique and it wasn't too bad. Thanks to all those who helped.

[Scootie]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

I build my own reballing machine. Here you watch it in action.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

That is right 4 zones, but the profile can have many stages within those zones, some may have 4 while others can have 9 its all dependent on the chip

And more importantly the board. Different boards have different thicknesses.

In regards to the temp, its actually recommended to take the chip to around 240c but to make sure the package temp does not exceed that and the dwell time is between 30 to 90, if its less than that the joint will not be as strong

Only if you're just reflowing or are soldering new chips with lead-free balls on them. Which i highly not recommend. I normally reball even chips i buy new, as leaded solder is so much easier to work with. For leaded there is never a reason to go over 210C.

I got lazy several times and soldered 3 chips like they came from the factory, with lead-free. 2 came out perfect, but the most expensive of the three got fried. I'm not doing that again... Prior to that, i hadn't burned a single chip in over 1 year.

452 stencils for 77$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Latest-459pc...item27cb2178bd

I got my eyes on that package as well. I need to complete my stencil collection, i haven't got many of the new ones like intel pch or new ati.

It arrived much faster than I expected. I haven't got all the other stuff yet but they're on the way. I have been busy testing profiles etc. and having good success removing components. I did the paper test suggested by The Unique and it wasn't too bad. Thanks to all those who helped.

That's great.

I build my own reballing machine. Here you watch it in action.

Nice! I find it quite surprising that you're using halogen lamps on the top as well.

[dellxps15]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

And if you go really cheap (talking to the guy who said 700E for "extra components"). You can get for under 100$ everything + over 150 stencils which cover up most of the chips. Don't give the OP wrong informations.

im referring to the 700 extra costs in that way:

yes u can buy those d.h stencil for 70 dollars, and wait 1-2 monts for arrival.

if u get a laptop with a a chip that your dh stencil bend, then u have to buy a proper jig stencil (20$) and all the other stencil (other 110 dollar).

then u have to buy balls. 0.35 -0.45-0.5-0.6; of those u can buy those little bottle or get the 250k for almost 15-20 dollar each.

desolder wick, u can buy 1-2 meters or just go with the 30meters long (40$)

kapton, is 15 dollar

alluminium is 15 dollar

flux is 10-20 dollar

proper solder iron equipment with controlled temperature is 30-100 dollar.

for making balls with the jig u can use hot hair station (im still fighting with it after 3 days of practice) or use your rework station or buy a proper hoven for 500 dollar.

ultrasonic cleaner is 40-150 dollar.

isopropil alchool is 6-10 dollar 1lt

power supply for lab is 60-150 dollar

solder mask is 15 dollar
bios chip programmer is 50-70 dollar

some bga and ic (if u get a notebook and dont want customer wait ship time from china) are most expensive to buy.


all that is if u want to work fast and offer a good service.

if u total the dollar on that list .... u see what i mean with extra costs.

if u want to spend less u can buy a cheap equipment and offer just a reflow

452 stencils for 77$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Latest-459pc...item27cb2178bd

i have the 405 version (payed 55$) almost all little stencil work just fine, but the biggest one just bend so easy and are not good.

[senchire]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

Yes u can buy those d.h stencil for 70 dollars, and wait 1-2 monts for arrival. (when you are in rush you aren't using this for hobby, so if you work with this 700$ aren't a cost they are a must).

if u get a laptop with a a chip that your dh stencil bend, then u have to buy a proper jig stencil (20$) and all the other stencil (other 110 dollar). (again nope never have bend and I use them over 1.5 year)

then u have to buy balls. 0.35 -0.45-0.5-0.6; of those u can buy those little bottle or get the 250k for almost 15-20 dollar each. (ehmm you won't need all most of them are 0.5 or 0.60 except you are in some serious business )

desolder wick, u can buy 1-2 meters or just go with the 30meters long (40$) (sure on this one you can spend so much but its not needed when you learn to use it like it should be used)

kapton, is 15 dollar ( not really no)

alluminium is 15 dollar (only on IR)

flux is 10-20 dollar (Kingbo sure is from 5 to 15)

proper solder iron equipment with controlled temperature is 30-100 dollar. (agree on this one)

for making balls with the jig u can use hot hair station (im still fighting with it after 3 days of practice) or use your rework station or buy a proper hoven for 500 dollar. (this however is funny, with HW I reball in under few minuts and clean the stencil as well)

ultrasonic cleaner is 40-150 dollar. (for chips? There are under 30$ and they do the job)

isopropil alchool is 6-10 dollar 1lt (yup)

power supply for lab is 60-150 dollar (if you don't have)

solder mask is 15 dollar (this isn't a cost its a must at least in my eyes)

some bga and ic (if u get a notebook and don't want customer wait ship time from china) are most expensive to buy. ( if its well paid its none of your business)


all that is if u want to work fast and offer a good service. (most points not accurate)

if u total the dollar on that list .... u see what i mean with extra costs. (count again )

if u want to spend less u can buy a cheap equipment and offer just a reflow (or you haven't learn to use it properly that is also a tought?)

[dellxps15]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

those 2 that i needed got bend, and as far im not good now with jig, i just go straight solder the new chip with lf balls

those are 0.45mm.

on an hp g62 i had also 0.35mm

so in my opinion 0.35-0.45-0.5-0.6 are necessary.

ofcourse most used are 0.5 and 0.6

i remember when i was starting to get into reball; first started with a heat gun... then looked for the puhui 862, then the achi ir6000 or the new achi ir6500, then went with the jetronix eco (1000€)

for now my total spent is around 2000€

and still need ultrasonic, power lab psu and hoven for balls

ps: i asked difference in 30 dollar ultrasonic and 150. the first can use only ipa, while the more expensive also acetone (that is more aggressive in cleaning something really dusty)


ofcourse that is just my opinion. i would not criticize anyone, but just to express what i did and bought.

ah i bought also 0402,0603 resistor and capacitors kit

last order i did to see-ic was 500$ plus 530 dollar to goldenchipset + 490 dollar to e-best


for me these hobby is very expensive

i should go back to only format service

ps: about the ball procedure, on italian forum we are very much that get in throuble with this procedure. i have to try with my rework and see if i get ok, for now too less flux, too much....and balls didnt get in position.

if u are fast, can u describe your procedure?

ps2: im writing this also to a dude that is starting in this hobby.... so i assume he will encounter some difficulty too like i think we all get in the start. remember when solder and desolder 0402, before i use 20x magnifier, now i go with hot air so fast.... but i remember the past and was hard

[Scootie]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

desolder wick, u can buy 1-2 meters or just go with the 30meters long (40$)

Where do you find that? Id like to buy those too.

Nice! I find it quite surprising that you're using halogen lamps on the top as well.

Well, I copied that plan from a romanian living in Austria.
I cant stay im satisfied with the results but I think it's working better then my chinese Elstein. Im still tweaking the device and changing profiles to my needs.

[dellxps15]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

Where do you find that? Id like to buy those too.



Well, I copied that plan from a romanian living in Austria.
I cant stay im satisfied with the results but I think it's working better then my chinese Elstein. Im still tweaking the device and changing profiles to my needs.

a bga shop here got that (35 euros ) and also ebay have them.

i see 30mt 2mm are 20 euros.
http://www.ebay.it/itm/SALDATORE-TRE...item53eb6b35e5

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Trecciola-dis...item462467d633

on ebay italy, but ofcourse you can find a dealer in your country

ps: the chem wick have very small wire, and if not used properly can get off the solder mask

[xboxhaxorz]

Re: Yet another BGA machine dream

I build my own reballing machine. Here you watch it in action.

not bad not bad at all, you should post on this bga forum

i think its fairly well built