Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Hello, guys.
It's been awhile, but there is development.

I finally got some time to deal with this PSU a bit. Right now, my PC is running on the SS-400ET PSU.

I removed the screws and then the bottom panel of the SS-660KM PSU case as per suggestion, and then I removed all the capacitors under 220uF. That particular one (KY) was fine, but several of the Rubycon YXG 50V 47uF were measured at 3.4 ohms ESR by the ESR meter. I know that these are small caps, but that looks a bit high.

I have ordered the Panasonic FR equivalents for all the ratings of the YXG and KY from Farnell and they should arrive in a week or two. Then I will replace all of them as soon as I grab some time and hope for the best. Strangely, I couldn't find all of the YXG cap ratings in the Rubycon's YXG sheet. Only 50V 22uF is listed, no 10uF nor 47uF. But for the 22uF it says that ESR is ~0.70, and my ESR meter measured the one from the PSU to be at around 1 ohm. The FR equivalent of that one is rated at twice as low the ESR (0.34).

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

... but several of the Rubycon YXG 50V 47uF were measured at 3.4 ohms ESR by the ESR meter. I know that these are small caps, but that looks a bit high.
...
Strangely, I couldn't find all of the YXG cap ratings in the Rubycon's YXG sheet. Only 50V 22uF is listed, no 10uF nor 47uF. But for the 22uF it says that ESR is ~0.70, and my ESR meter measured the one from the PSU to be at around 1 ohm.

Just measure the case size on your caps. If it's 5x11 mm, take any 5x11 mm cap in the datasheet with the same voltage and the ESR should be the same or close to that value. Also remember the 20% tolerance and that temperature affects caps. So if you measured the cap while it was at any less than 25C room temperature, the ESR could be higher. Add the 20% tolerance on to, and you just may have a cap that is marginal, but still not bad.

In any case, I guess we will know once you have those caps replaced, now that you have ordered new ones. 3.x Ohms is a bit high, so maybe that was the problem, after all.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Well, I was not able to find all the reference values on Rubycon's website about its YXG series. All the Rubycon caps in my PSU are YXG series rated at 50V, yet the YXG data sheet only has ESR values for 22uF, no 10uF or 47uF. And according to the value for 22uF, I see that it should be around 0.70 ohms, way bellow the values I measured. Is there another source of these data sheets where I can see the 50V10uF and 50V47uF impedance values? How come no values are listed for these Rubycon caps in the official data sheet?

[Behemot]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Customised values. Guesstimating by interpolation, it should be about 0.5 ohm for 47uF and 1.5 ohm for 10uF.

I have some doubts about the accuracy of that measurement though, don't you use some of those chinese garage meters? Is it calibrated? I have seen so little bad low-ESR 105°C caps from reputable manufacturers I'd count that on a single hand, so far. (Ultra-low ESR caps on motherboards are different matter.) It makes little sense.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

I have seen so little bad low-ESR 105°C caps from reputable manufacturers I'd count that on a single hand, so far. (Ultra-low ESR caps on motherboards are different matter.) It makes little sense.

It could make sense if you measure the temperature near those caps and/or try to measure ripple on those caps.
Its entirely possible that they might fail prematurely due to a design flaw.
Maybe a manufacturing error...

I'd still suspect the +12V FETs to cook the caps around it. And the +5VSB is pretty close to the +12V FETs.

On Super Flower Leadex the +5VSB is on the other side of the PCB as is the case with the newer FOCUS plattform...

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

I bought an ESR meter with MK328 chipset similar to what was suggested by someone here in this topic. And yes, I calibrated it. I tried several used but good, new, and bad caps just to test it (I think I wrote about it here).

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Hey, guys, I got my pack of FR capacitors. Unfortunately, Farnell did not send the 50V22uF ones because they ran out them in the mean time. My PSU only needs one of those. Maybe I will check again to see if a back order is available. I would like to replace all the caps below 470uF as per advice and all at once, in order not to take the PSU apart multiple times.

Anyway, these little FR guys look... well, plain. There are no other markings except the ones for the rating, temperature, series, and something that might look like a date code which gives little to no clue about the meaning behind it. For example, it says 681OL, or 78IIIGH.
I also checked them with the ESR meter. Capacitance is superb, while the impedance is lower than the one in the official specs. For example, a 50V47uF reading showed that its ESR is 0.09ohms, whereas the oficial specs say it is around 0.14. All the caps' readings are close to one another. The small ones have a flat top, while the larger ones have a T-shape indent.

Now, when I get some free time, I will take the PSU apart. My questions are:

1) Judging by the description, do you find these FR capacitors to be genuine (if necessary, I will post some pictures)? I was amazed by the very professional packaging and the accompanying paperwork included.
2) Should I measure the old caps in-circuit? If they test OK, should I replace them with the new ones anyway (which brings us to question number 3)?
3) By comparing the spec tables, these FR capacitors have lower impedance than the original Rubycon YXGs. What are your thoughts, will the difference in the ESR cause this Seasonic PSU to misbehave?

Thanks in advance for your support and guidance.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

OK, regarding my question number 2, I meant the other caps in the PSU (larger ones), since I didn't measure those last time.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Anyway, these little FR guys look... well, plain. There are no other markings except the ones for the rating, temperature, series, and something that might look like a date code which gives little to no clue about the meaning behind it. For example, it says 681OL, or 78IIIGH.
I also checked them with the ESR meter. Capacitance is superb, while the impedance is lower than the one in the official specs. For example, a 50V47uF reading showed that its ESR is 0.09ohms, whereas the oficial specs say it is around 0.14. All the caps' readings are close to one another. The small ones have a flat top, while the larger ones have a T-shape indent.

Now, when I get some free time, I will take the PSU apart. My questions are:

1) Judging by the description, do you find these FR capacitors to be genuine (if necessary, I will post some pictures)?

Yup, they sound genuine to me. Panasonic FR caps do look quite boring indeed. But who cares, as long as they work as they should and last a long time.

2) Should I measure the old caps in-circuit? If they test OK, should I replace them with the new ones anyway (which brings us to question number 3)?

Well, if you have the replacement caps already, you might as well pull the "old" ones from the PSU and replace them.

But for the ones that you don't have replacements... sure, it wouldn't hurt to pull a few and measure them, if it isn't too much of an inconvenience (I'd personally only pull those caps that are near the hottest components and/or major/important filter caps).

And no, don't measure in circuit. In-circuit measurements are generally a bad idea, especially with those cheap component testers (which are bound to measure more than one component at the same time and then give bizarre results.

3) By comparing the spec tables, these FR capacitors have lower impedance than the original Rubycon YXGs. What are your thoughts, will the difference in the ESR cause this Seasonic PSU to misbehave?

Very unlikely.
Like I might have mentioned previously here (I don't remember anymore, it's been a while since I last posted on BCN), the ESR of a capacitor can vary quite a bit with temperature - sometimes as much as a power of 10. So most circuits are usually designed around the rather loose ESR tolerances of electrolytic caps.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Thanks, momaka. I will get to it as soon as I grab some free time.

Meanwhile, I found a notice on Panasonic's website about their date coding. And I am confused. The year is labelled by one digit, followed by another digit which tells the month. Then comes the "Greek number" and two more letters which tell the assembly line. So, if a cap has a date code 78IIIGH, it means that it was made in August of the year having 7 as the last digit, but there is no way to tell if the year is 1997, 2007 or 2017. I bought these FR series caps from Farnell, and I can't tell how old they are now.
Any help regarding this?

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

So, if a cap has a date code 78IIIGH, it means that it was made in August of the year having 7 as the last digit, but there is no way to tell if the year is 1997, 2007 or 2017. I bought these FR series caps from Farnell, and I can't tell how old they are now.
Any help regarding this?

From what I can recall, Panasonic FR caps are fairly new series (relatively speaking) and they didn't come out until 2009-2010 or so, if not later. Thus, that datecode should indicate they are from 2017.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Thanks.
Yes, they could be made last year, which would be more than great.
Anyway, I found this info on Panasonic's date codes, dating back to 2004. No FR series is listed, but FC and FM are, so I assume that the date code format applies to FR as well since it is the same.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Indeed.

Actually, Panasonic has been using that date code format for a very long time. I have some general purpose caps from them from the 90's, and they appear to use this date code as well.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Hi, people.
Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but I wanted to share this with you. The PSU that is the topic of this thread has stopped powering on completely, so I bought a replacement before I actualy had had the chance to recap this one. So it just stayed in its box until I got some free time.
So, today I thought "What the hack, I am going to recap it and see if it will make any difference". Well... not so much.

First of all, desoldering the old caps was a nightmare. I don't know what kind of solder Seasonic used, but I barely melted it just enough to pull out the old caps. But I managed, and replaced them with the FR ones. The result: a candidate for a trash bin. There is no difference, the PSU won't power on. But, there is now and then a second of life. When I turn off the power, there are two "click, click" sounds and the fan starts to spin for a second, until a next "click" kills it again. Turning back the power has no effect. While the PSU is plugged open, I can hear a faint hissing noise coming from it, and every time I do the "paperclip trick" there is a faint "contact click" which lasts a fraction of a second, but it can be heard every time I connect the required pins. Nevertheless, it stays off.
Why does it try power on when the power is cut, what are your thoughts? I guess the caps weren't the problem. It must be sometnig else.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

The result: a candidate for a trash bin.

Eh, don't get discouraged. I know how that feels when you spend a lot of time working on something and it still doesn't work. I have a pile of "projects" like that. Sometimes I feel that I should take them outside and set them on fire. But I don't. Instead I keep working on them... and in the process, I also tend to learn a lot. Then the very few of these things that I manage to fix, I feel like its the pinnacle achievement of my life, lol.

Anyways, before we conclude its totally broken, I first always have to ask the silly question: when you testing the PSU, did you connect it to a load? An old Pentium 4 motherboard should do the trick. Without a load, some PSUs turn off right away.

If your PSU still doesn't turn on with a load, as suggested above, then let's start back from the beginning of PSU testing: with the PSU plugged in, measure the voltage on the 5VSB and PS_ON wires. What do they read?

In any case, the next most logical step to make troubleshooting eaiser is to take the boards out of the PSU case and solder wires with a plug directly to the PSU input. That way, it would be much easier to take voltage measurements and test things when needed. Keep the PSU like this until the problem is found.

We will continue from there after you do the above mentioned items and post here. Again, that would be: test PSU with a load first - if problem persists, check 5VSB and PS_ON voltage and post the results here. And then also disassemble PSU.

If I had to guess, the issue is probably going to turn out as either bad controller of some sort (APFC, 5VSB, PWM,) or small signal component related to that (i.e. diode or transistor going leaky or SMD ceramic cap shorted)... or maybe the slightest of cracked solder on a joint somewhere.

**Edit**
Just saw that in post #48, you said you don't have a multimeter.
Well, now would be a good time to get one and learn how to use it.
Even a cheap nasty digital one will do okay.
Besides, it's a handy tool to have, even if you do the slightest of computer repairs, car work, or wiring something in the house.

**Edit 2**
Never mind about the multimeter stuff above. Looks like you got one after all. And a component tester too.
I'm just re-reading the thread again and looking for clues and ideas about your PSU, so bare with me if I make another stupid typo/mistake in this post.

[Behemot]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

So after a what, like a year, we all learned what I said right at the beinning. And did not learn a thing to what is the *actual* cause of these problems.

momaka: thats's not even long shot, that's just nonsense. This thing is resonant 12V synchronnously rectified unit, it requires no load whatsoever to run and has none internally for sake of efficiency.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

momaka: thats's not even long shot, that's just nonsense. This thing is resonant 12V synchronnously rectified unit, it requires no load whatsoever to run and has none internally for sake of efficiency.

I know new PSUs don't have an internal load.

But let me ask you this: are you the designer of this PSU? Do you know if this particular model does or doesn't need a load to run? Just because resonant LLC designs don't in general doesn't mean the manufacturer of this PSU didn't make things slightly different.

In any case, it's always safer to ASSume that the PSU needs a load than that it doesn't.

Now, if you have more constructive suggestions to add on how to troubleshoot this PSU rather than "oh, I told you it's not the caps", please feel free to post it below.

[Behemot]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Yes I know. None of these designs do, only (some, not all) of the old crappy group designs do (and those, if from at least half-decent manufacturer, state minimum load in manual or somewhere).

It's good to take an educated guess what the problem might be and if you are even able to find it with what you have before you start doing something. Otherwise you waste the most valuable comodity these days - time - and end nowhere anyways. Nobody pays for getting nowhere, ppl tend to pay for results and even for that quite poorly. I too have (or had at least) lots of crap I was not able to fix which I lately started disassembling and ditching for at least a little money as scrap. I hardly ever get to it again, even if than I don't fix anything anyways in about 99 % of the cases. Scrapping it and focusing on about TWO TONS of material I already have (and more is still coming) and can actually do something usable with is kinda better than wasting money literally every month paying rent only to store hundreds of kilos of such crap in the place.

One of such educated guesses was and is that the caps are not the problem here (never were and never will be) and absolute beginner has no chance of finding the problem whan many more skilled and/or educated ppl than me also failed. Trying to do so is a waste of time. One might also argue that better way of learning is actually starting with something simple and managing to fix it - that way you know that the problem you find was actually it and the thing you did solved it. Otherwise it's just having theories without any real idea what's going on and what's bad in the circuit. Don't thing that dozen theories are actually any education but who knows, I don't have the schools, maybe I am wrong.

UserXP: get transformer soldering pistol, for beginner about 100W one with reasonably long* 2.5mm^2 wire is the best option. I learned that the westernese often do not know such thing even happend as it was most used in the "eastern bloc" but you are there so you should be able to get that. I know for sure some czech companies make them and export east. Do not listen to no crap about microsoldering pens and stations - I do about 95+ % of my work with it (actually already with 125VA as I am able to deliver the power I want precisely after the years). Close to none of the microsoldering pens on the PLANET will deliver enough power to the tip to work on a modern power supply without pre-heating.

*the wire length is one of the factors in the formula of how much power you get where you want it (as with a properly made pistol, the wire ohmic resistance is the one parameter which has the greatest impact)

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Otherwise you waste the most valuable comodity these days - time - and end nowhere anyways. Nobody pays for getting nowhere, ppl tend to pay for results and even for that quite poorly.

I agree that it's not worth the time to fix these things anymore - but that's only if you're doing it as a business.

But if you are doing it as a hobby in your spare time because you enjoy doing these kinds of things, then it's a different story.

I too have (or had at least) lots of crap I was not able to fix which I lately started disassembling and ditching for at least a little money as scrap. I hardly ever get to it again, even if than I don't fix anything anyways in about 99 % of the cases. Scrapping it and focusing on about TWO TONS of material I already have (and more is still coming) and can actually do something usable with is kinda better than wasting money literally every month paying rent only to store hundreds of kilos of such crap in the place.

Well, I can't say that I disagree with what you are doing.
These days, almost everything is built like crap and made to be non-serviceable (or at least not worth the time anyways), and manufacturers are doing this on purpose it seems to keep the money coming in their pockets, while squeezing out the repair guys like me and you and also money from the regular user. It's part of the reason why I quit my PC repair job too last year - it just started boiling down to telling customers that their PC is not fixable, charging the diagnostic fee, and then telling them they need a new PC. Occasionally, I got to do a cool custom game PC build or two, but those were far and few between.

get transformer soldering pistol, for beginner about 100W one with reasonably long* 2.5mm^2 wire is the best option. I learned that the westernese often do not know such thing even happend as it was most used in the "eastern bloc" but you are there so you should be able to get that.

LOL
Is that one of those AC-type irons you're talking about that runs high-current through the soldering tip to generate the heat? If it is... I don't know man. Maybe 100-125W with thick wire works well. But I have a 65W iron like that, made by Weller... and it's not very good. Okay, I will say that it IS much better than the crappy Hakko 936 clones with the shitty 900M tips. But that Weller I have is also easily beaten by a regular oldschool 45 Watt iron that my dad gave me (it's some old soviet thing, but with really really thick copper tip and good build quality). It's my "go-to" iron when I'm overseas visiting family and need to do any work there. Otherwise, for the big stuff, my 75 Watt T12 tips station will get almost anything unsoldered. If it can't, I put it on our gas stove. Now that WILL unsolder anything you want. I can remove CPU sockets from mobos in under 5 minutes if I don't care about the mobo, or a bit longer if I do. (so as to prevent popcorning).

Close to none of the microsoldering pens on the PLANET will deliver enough power to the tip to work on a modern power supply without pre-heating.

True.

If you wanna remove big stuff, you gotta have powerful toys.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Well, I guess "planned obsolence" does play its part here. This PSU came with a 5 year warranty, and it quit on me 5 years and 7 months after purchasing. My new PSU has a 7 year warranty, so hopefully I will be safe until 2025. Hopefully.
Still, I would prefer if I had fixed this malfunctioning PSU, somehow I get the feeling that some tiny component might be causing this behavior. But I am a mere rookie in this hobby, that is true. I actally was considering selling it for scrap or to someone who might be able to fix and use it.

Momaka, thanks for the tip. I actually do have an old socket 478 rig and will use it to load the PSU, for consistency's sake. :-)