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Old 03-21-2006, 06:01 AM   #81
NEOAethyr
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Hey trodas .
I'm gonna join this thread, even though I allready posted in the sister thread in dfi-street.

These guys have alot of knowledge, I would'nt mind asking them ?'s and all, I hope you don't mind .

I got the same board guys.
Mine was made in china.

I can post specs later, I'm 100% stable(prime, superpi, s&m and memtest at 275, 550mhz fsb, 250x10 prime and everything stable @1.725v vcore)

I've been planning on doing some of the hardware mods, I've had this board maybe 3yrs now I dn.

I have a few things I'd like to do other then caps.

The caps, I've been looking at mine lately.
I've managed to figuer out what most of them are, but I'd have to shut down my rig, maybe even take the board out to check the rest.

I mapped them to the same #'s in the pic that trodas posted.

Default:

1: Chemi-con KZG 6.3v 3300uf
2: Chemi-con KZG 6.3v 3300uf
3: Chemi-con KZG 6.3v 3300uf
4: Chemi-con KZG 6.3v 3300uf
5: Chemi-con KZG 6.3v 3300uf
6: Chemi-con KZG 16v 1500uf
7: Chemi-con KZG 16v 1500uf
8: Chemi-con KZG 16v 1500uf
9: Teapo ??
10: NA
11: NA
12: NA
13: NA
14: NA
15: NA
17: NA
18: NA
19: ??? (Can't even see that area)
20: ??? (Can't even see that area)
21: NA
22: NA
23: NA
24: ??? (Can't even see that area)
25: OST ??
26: OST 16v 470uf
27: OST 16v 470uf
28: OST 16v ?uf
29: Teapo ??
30: Teapo ??
31: Teapo ??
32: ???
33: ???
34: Teapo 6.3v 1000uf
35: ???
36: ???
37: ???
38: ??? (Oscon Type)
39: ??? (Oscon Type)
40: ??? (Oscon Type)
41: ??? (Oscon Type)
42: ??? (Oscon Type)
43: ??? (Oscon Type)

I got these as possible spares, I found them in backplane servers lol, really old ones.
The rubies come from an asus nf2 board, which I would be willing to tear out if they are usefull as replacements(but I would replace these rubies with something else, because I still want the board for my mom).

Have Stock:

Rubycon:
MBZ:
5X 6.3v, 3300uf

nichicon:
PL:
5X 6.3v 3900uf
1X 10v 2200uf

PY:
2X 6.3v 1500uf

Panasonic:
HFQ:
2X 16v 1500uf
1X 10v 2200uf


I know it's best if I just look them up myself and determain but still.
Maybe you guys can tell me right off the bat what are good ones.
I mean, should I replace the Chemi-con KZG's with any of the above I have spare?
I would if they were of any inprovement what so ever .

I'm not sure about increaseing the uf though, because I dn how the board would really act.
I would be willing sure, but it would truly suck if my oc went down hill.

And yes, I got lots of those ost's, and teapo's.
Which I would replace.
I still need to finish up what is default on my board though before that.
I'm most interested ni the cpu, north bridge and memory.

Pci and agp is fine, I've been 120mhz agp stable, and 60mhz pci stable.
Depends on the video card though and the bios I use for that.


There's better rubycon's out there I know.
One of the types in that stiky.
Thoguh I've heard of 2 othr types too, la and lz I think were the names I'm not sure, I would need to look them up again.
Still, I got what I got for now, next month I can find more spares on more piled up server board lol.
My buddy has got tons of old crap.
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Old 03-21-2006, 06:07 AM   #82
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Old caps are generally not good to recap with, because they've already gone through most of their useful life and there are newer, better, lower-impedance parts available.
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Old 03-21-2006, 04:46 PM   #83
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

I suggest either Rubycon MCZ or thos Oscon types if availibale in proper capazity. Those Cemicons are prety very good, i doubt that on of those you mentioned are better.
So fi you can`t obtain good caps, i think it is better to do some smal steps an ad some of those ceramic caps. I think this will ad mutch more to high frequenzy stability than to improve those chemicons.

Last edited by gonzo0815; 03-21-2006 at 04:49 PM..
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Old 03-21-2006, 07:30 PM   #84
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

I see thanks .

Sorry about the classification erros, where I said os-con's...
I'm learning though, I should of called them solid polymer or ceramic.

gonzo0815
I would assume you're talking about the ones around the memory slots.

There is a few spaces that don't have anyhting but I'm not sure as what they actually affect yet.
Later on I'll take out my board, write down the rest of the values, and take a look at some traces to see what caps belong to what circuts.
(Edit:, I would replace the existing ones for sure, bus speed is #1 to me before cpu anyways, still anything is good though)

I'm also gonna write down what I got for 1% or better type like resistors lying around, then look for ones of the same value on the mobo.
So I can replace the crappy ones with better ones, even if they are old.
Should be fine I would hope.

I allready swapped out the battery, a newsun 2032, for a panasonic 2032.


As for caps, I have doing some searching and etc, but not enough though.
So far I've come up with this list sorta.

BlackGate: Single Purpose Use.
Use For High Voltages.

Multi Purpose:

Organic:
Sanyo SEP

Possible Alternative Organic:
NCC/UCC PSA


Electrolytic:
BlackGate (Not sure of types)(Not sure if better then Rubycon ZA's)
Rubycon ZA
Panasonic FM
Panasonic FC (Made in China, some issues with consitancy)
Nichicon HE (Around the same as Panasonic FC's?, which is better...?)


I'm not sure where the ruby mcz's come in on the list right this sec.
I have to re-read some stuff and look for more info.
Been looking through the audio forums and all that as well.

It looks as if the sanyo sep's are the best.
I'm not sure if you can get them in 16v sizes or higher though.
That and I'm not totally sure if they would be best to have in all the locations or not yet.
In such location I may be better to add some type of blackgate or the rubycon za.
Then again I still need more info to compare the blackgate's and ruby za's...
I'm thinking the za's...


I may wanna replace caps in my psu and other parts too, like my little conexant dialup modem lol...
The psu is a ocz powerstream 600w adj sli, I don't much care for this psu, I liked my 350w enermax better but it could'nt handle adding a new video card and more fans at once.
This psu has screwed over some stuff allready, the ocz.

I worked on my rig for 3 months tryign to get stuff back to normal :\.
My 6600gt was stuck at agp1x, constanly giving my aux power errors.
I eventually just tossed the damned card and went back to my quadro 900xgl(which needs re-capping bigtime).
Having drive issues where my drives dissapear on this ocz as well...
Stability issues too.
I modded the psu externally which fixed the stability issues mostly.

Anyways laters.
I gotta eat and start doc'ing what high precistion resistors I got ^^.

Sorry about the oftopic stuff yo .
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Old 03-22-2006, 04:43 AM   #85
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Double post, I forgot to ask about something that trodas may of not noticed.

In some rev's of the board, specificly the later china rev's,there is a cap between the mosfets for ram slots 1 and 2.
(Actually backwards, since slot 1 is the last slot from the cpu and vise versa but let us not get into that).

Anyways it's a hack job sorta thing.
Like board companies do and all after they find some sort of flaw with the initial design.

I was wondering if anyone could tell us what sort of effect it could have.

It's been forever since I tested this but.
My adata, my tcc5 does not show tis issue.
On slot 3, if I used 3.3v it would error out, even at 250mhz fsb(500).
Same config and such, slot 1 I think(maybe slot 2, been w awhile), 3.3v, no errors.

However slot 1 is alot less stable generally then slot 3 is.
Probably because slot 1 is slot 3 but perhaps it is because of this factory mod.

Or maybe the reason why my adata does'nt error out with 3.3v with a generic setup in slot1 or was it 2..., is because of this mod.

I'll attach a pic of the area.
I got the pic from another thread, I just added the red crap to it since I don't have a cam.
It's a little smd red color cap in that spot where I scribbled.

If the effects are for the good of the board, then maybe it's possible to do the same for the other slots somehow with a bit of thaught put into it 1st on how to doit and the effects needed.


As for poeple that may say,why bother with this old board, why not move on allready?
Because, for one, I'm very poor, not joking on this.
For 2, I bet it's truly possible to get the max fsb out of this board.

I allready have 277 11hrs prime stable.
275 completely stable 100%.
275 in dual chan as well with 2 totally diffrent kinds of memory.
Thoug I need to work more on my bios and all, hardware mods I'm sure will help alot.


Oh and I found more caps.
Some more rubies, some more nichies, and some actual sanyo os-con's.
The sanyo's being svp's(surface mounts, but I'm sure I could mod this to fit if I wanted), and a g series.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg lpb2-withcap(sorta).jpg (46.6 KB, 38 views)

Last edited by NEOAethyr; 03-22-2006 at 04:49 AM..
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Old 03-23-2006, 12:00 PM   #86
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Thumbs up Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

First, voltage report + pics.
Real Vcore? I have set 1.900Vcore in bios for the poor oldie unlocked Barton with can't handle more that 2200Mhz. I measured Vcore with latest CPUZ, and load or iddle - it oscilate slowly but all the time between 1.872 and 1.888V. So much for the cheap chips to measure the voltages, eh. My DMM show other things. On load it says 1.938 and on iddle it says 1.919 and in both cases there is absolutely NO changes in the voltage in time. Not even at the 3th digit!
This is IMHO good, but what the hell means that the iddle is lower that the load voltage?
Still too bad filtering? Or?
Damn, I have to buy the expensive oscilloscope to actually see the voltages, eh...

Anyway, I did not measured the voltage at the socket. I used the input leg to the coil. Hope this did not affect the reading's in any way too much? I know that best will be hold the mobo in vertical and measure on the caps I solder there from bottom, but... I feared I will short something, so...
Is this measuring okay? And what it means?
To me it looks like pis*poor job, when the iddle/load voltage differ so much... Well, actually 0.019V is not too much, but still - should it not be better stable? For all the mods, huh?

Anyway, couple of pictures for viewing pleasure:


Recapping of my DFI LP B mobo started. Panasonic FM caps used. First the failed ones...


Let's not forget the Vcore ones.


And the support Vcore ones on the side of the CPU, up to the NB heatsink.


Overal look - looks promising.


The Vdd + Vdimm area get pretty crowdy with caps now!


There are still the two dam OST caps yet...


And these has quite hard time to fit there, but I did my best - f*ck the rest.


And it is time for serious modification! Now - who need COM, LPT and SP/DIF ports, when use X-Fi?


It create more space for heatsink as well, as make the airflow better. So, why not?
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Last edited by trodas; 03-23-2006 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 03-23-2006, 02:05 PM   #87
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Your VCore is fine, I don't think you will ever see a smaller fluctation than that from idle to full load

Atleast I have never on the systems I've recapped

Also you must consider the fact that when you push the voltage regulators there will be more error, i.e. the more you push them the bigger the delta will be between idle and full load

And again; that is some seriously excellent work done trodas!
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Old 03-23-2006, 11:56 PM   #88
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Very neat job Trodas. What is that stuff on the inductors? Is it silicone?
A pity you are unable to push the AMD beyond 2200. That was as far as I dared to go.
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Old 03-24-2006, 06:00 AM   #89
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

The stuff on the toroids looks like dust.
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Old 03-26-2006, 05:25 AM   #90
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Unhappy Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Per Hansson - thanks a lot We see what happens on higher clock anyway. I was just toying with the mobo ATM due to lack of better CPU for testing (I want preserve my "typing machine" before I get the final caps...)


davmax - thanks. And yes, a hi-temp silicone I tried to use to quiet them down. I learned the hard way that it will not quiet them down (nothing can improve a bad design, except maybe a lot of caps added to filter as much, as they can) and the silicone is impossible (at least as it seems to me for now) to remove. So I scour what I can, but the rest (and VERY UGHLY rest indeed) remaining there...
Better photo next time the Taiwan mobo, witch did not have such ughly problem. Look, how they are once beautifull:
http://ax2.old-cans.com/s.php?p=wc&id=126&c=8&d=1&v=v2

And please, just for once - read what I write, okay? It is kind of puzzling me now, what I stated clearly that the used CPU is a TESTING CPU - eg. piece of junk and I did not show what the mobo can do yet - and I even can't with such crappy CPU...
Wait before I replace it with my AXP-M 2600+ (or with the the 2400+ one, witch is supposed to be good clocker as well, at least Mark says so...) and then you will see.
I'm puzzled because I used to run at 200x13 - 2600Mhz and I did not call 200x12.5 overclocking at all, so... Please don't say that this board is unable to go higher, or I show you, that it can go as high, that it can do WR in 3DMark 01 score.
ATM Stefan SAE hold it - as his sig says:
3DMark01 = 25807 @ 12.5x261MHz 11-2-2-2-2.0 w/DFI Lanparty B - 9800XT No.1 AXP

Now at just a very slight testing OC, at very poor 230x11 I was able to reach 21 871 points. Now even w/o the OCP mod, my CPU can do a hell lot more:


Validated on xtremeforums there:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=45988&page=15
Quote:
Jupiler (Administrator) - trodas, Zejtan, ziR.DiGi and masterchorch:
all checksums pass.
So - it short - don't push me


Chris1992 - geee, I trying to keep my machines so clean, mate. No dust, damn silicone, my fault!


And anyway, I already get bored again and removed the sound output ports as well, hehe. I did not even use them, since I using Audigy2zs and soon X-Fi Fatal1ty, so... And they does restrict the airflow, so for the sake of better cooling - off they go. And the board is still functional, LOL
Above this, I also removed every the remaining ten pieces of OST (one smaller Teapo between them, a 22uF for 25V one) 100uF caps between the PCI slots and one near the main power cord from PSU for 120uF 16V Panasonic FM ones. They are bit bigger and more bulky, but I hate the idea of caps, marked as BAD CAPS and known to be prone for FAILING MISERABLY are on my mobo. Easpecially the cursed Teapo went off the mobo with big kick in the arse...

Now the only one caps that are originals there are the cursed 6 caps witch are going to be replaced as soon, as I get them and other that that - there is 12 10uF SMD caps, this one right to the bulky Panasonic:

...and on it is writen 3t, 10, 16V.
What are these? Anyone know?
Since they are near the AGP, around the sound output and some around the SB I did not think much about replacing them, but I have 10uF 16V ceramic caps, witch will do better job for sure - ceramics is always better that electrolyte ones, by their far lower ESL and ESR (means also more ripple current they could deliver...). But it is worth? Can they be failing?
Especially those near bellow the AGP port will be very hard to remove/replace...
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:08 AM   #91
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

2.7Ghz, damn that is impressive!

I got my XP-M 2500+ running at 2.3ghz with an Alpha 8045... But that was it, it did not like going higher...

I did bid on a 3ghz capable CPU on eBay though... But fell asleep before I bid as high as I wanted, it sold for ca 120$, I'm still kicking myself in the arse for that one...
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:26 AM   #92
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

First of all, great job Trodas, it's all looking very 'neat' and professionally done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Hansson
2.7Ghz, damn that is impressive!

I got my XP-M 2500+ running at 2.3ghz with an Alpha 8045... But that was it, it did not like going higher...
In general, though, those XP-M chips can be remarkably overclockable - one of the kids is using a 2600+ model, which is running stably at 2.56 GHz (stably by the standards of 'gaming', NB: not the kind of stability I would ever think of running any vaguely serious workstation at!)

Remarkable in a way is the 'emergency machine', I have here, built out of total junk from the "trash bin", - a modded-to-death ECS K7S5A, running a AMD Socket A Thoroughbred at almost 2.4GHz, with its stock cooler. Vcore is, needless to say, moronically high, temperatures are volcanic, and the MB's OST caps are just itching to blow their tops...

Last edited by tiresias; 03-26-2006 at 06:33 AM..
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:59 AM   #93
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Talking Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Per Hansson - thanks, but that was before OCP mod and I wand far more 3Ghz capable CPU did not say a thing alone. With phasecooling you can add about 400 - 600Mhz to your max OC, so, put that in perspective - your 2.3G AXP is almost 3Ghz one as well BTW, WR on aircooling is 3.19Ghz, IIRC for AXP.
I can't beat that with my stepping...


tiresias - thank you very much, more pics soon. 2600+ models are best - SAE got his WR for AXP all with it and - well - this is a beast! I used to work and fold on 2600Mhz with my 2600+ for year and it was stable. Entierly. Folding make sure of 100% load all the time and when you work, you put another stress on this machine, so...
And getting Thoroughbred at almost 2.4G is - needles to say - impressive! Upgrade your caps, mate, hehe. And made better cooling, hehe

And now a little update. I finally get hold of the remaining caps and finished my mobo and begin with little OC, witch should show how the mobo was improved - if at all. For start I used freshly obtained AXP-M 2400+ CPU, witch is not very good clocker, it need terribly high 1.950Vcore to pass Hexus PI fast stable at poor 2700Mhz, however - there we go:



In case you wonder - yes, it is validated: http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=83894
(hexus PI fast not fake - v4.1 used, grab it there and see how fast you can make it for yourself - AXP WR is 43.92 sec by SAE)

I'm going to exchange the CPU for my 2600+ one for some true benchmarking, tough it looks like the job was at least did not make the OC worser, hehe
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Old 04-04-2006, 01:57 PM   #94
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Any technical info on the Matsushita/Panasonic 105C FJ series caps? How does this compares to United Chemi-Con KZG series?

TIA
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:12 PM   #95
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

there is no specs available on FJ series
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Old 04-04-2006, 04:03 PM   #96
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Why? Has this item been discontinue?
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Old 04-09-2006, 10:17 AM   #97
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Thumbs up Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Aren't you guys a little OT there?


Anyway, now again few pics of my modifications!


Adding the 4.7uF caps into the Socket A on DFI LP B - yep, they aren't there before.


Adding another four 4.7uF SMD caps from bottom of the Socket.


Bridging right Vcore mosfet is most problematic one - the shortcut between layers are connected on the Vcore groud, while the right leg of the cap is positive Vcore voltage and believe me - you don't want co connect these two...!


On the other hand, bridging added ram caps from bottom is almost easy task. Won't looking too good, but do the job.


That's are one of the last long-awaited caps in my mobo soldered already. Hooray for them!

And BTW, just a easy shoot with 2600+ mobile:
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=84643
: : :
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Old 04-09-2006, 09:33 PM   #98
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

a few of those joints look cold.
i often add the omitted parts.
often helps stability.
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Old 04-10-2006, 09:02 AM   #99
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Talking Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

Well, they might look that way, but I can assure you, that if they are cold, I was not able to reach 2900Mhz
They look odd because I tried take some of the tim off from then, so... But hey, that was my first recap work

And I could only agree with you that the fact the marketing "specialists" decided to omit some parts aren't reason to not put them back again

They did it for price benefit (eg. minimize making price = maximize profit) while we seek longetivity, stability and some of us even stability under extreme loads and pressures on the mobo at very high clocks, for witch the mobo aren't intented to operate

In fact, the fastest AXP was 3200+ suxxka witch ran at 2200Mhz by 200x11. Now 2200Mhz I won't even test when testing OC. Usually I start by determining how much voltage the CPU need for 2500Mhz prime stable, so...

Every part need. Exchanging the caps to higher capacitance ones help as well, as the increased capacitance come also with better specs, so... all in all, this is a good way to do it.

Sadly I usin the board regulary now, so no time for extreme play, but once I finish playing with Opty, then I push the limits with this mobo once again and this time with serious Mobile - any my 2600+ one is hell of a clocker
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Old 04-15-2006, 10:00 AM   #100
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Default Re: low or super low ESR + impedance caps

trodas, you have inspired me. and for the last little while have been modding my dfi nf3 350gb board. didnt need to replace the caps since the KZG's are still good. but been adding some samxon to the cpu vrm. been adding some electro caps in places they have been left out, as well as a few ceramics.
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Maxtor 6L250S0
Maxtor 6V300F0
Western Digital WD2500JS
Mushkin HP-550(Cap/Filter Modded)

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Swiftech Apogee
Swiftech MCW-60
Swiftech MCP-600
HardwareLabes Black Ice Extreme 2
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