Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Sounds good, budwich. Thanks for the teaching points.

Do you think the voltage of the replacement cap will matter? There are 10v and 16v and 25v options. I’ll probably just get a pack of ten of them or so from Digikey to help justify the shipping expense. Can get 100 from China for about the same price.

And, does the X5R vs. X7R designation matter?

I might be able to test the “mirror cap” and its voltage once I open up the set again. Buttoned it up last night for space reasons. If it’s critical to match the voltage value between old cap and replacement cap, I can get that reading. If it’s not critical, maybe I could just go with the 2.2uF and 16v version? Asking before I make any purchase.

[budwich]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

16v is likely not enough. If the picture is correct, the vcom is somewhere "close by". You can measure it. It likely greater than 20v.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Yes, the VCOM and VCOM_ARRAY is only two SMD’s away.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

So, one of these 4 then, correct?

Samsung Electronics and TDK each have them available through Digikey.

The only difference I can note between the top image and bottom image on both pictures is that one ends in -1-ND and its corollary ends in -6-ND. Anything to worry about there?

Which one would you pick for the job? All are 2.2uF and 25v. One is X5R and the other X7R, as you can see. I’m assuming 25v is okay and that I don’t have to try to match the 20v VCOM you cited exactly with a 20v SMD cap because you noted it’s likely more than 20v. True?

[SLK001]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

You can pick either one, since the operating temp range of the TV falls within both series. The X5R operates up to 85°C and the X7R operates up to 125°C. The top and bottom caps are the same, the difference in the listing probably references bulk vs cut tape or something. Either brand is okay, but I would go with the TDK. You can always go higher in voltage than the circuit requires, but never lower.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Thanks, SLK. I’ll go with the TDK XR7’s then.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Wondering .....

I haven't opened up the set yet again, but based off of this image is it possible that the C114 SMD CAP in question is actually bigger than the dimensions of the 0805?

According to spec sheets I found on the Digikey site:

The 0805 is 2.0 mm x 1.2 mm
The 1206 is 3.2 mm x 1.6mm
and
The 1210 is 3.2 mm x 2.6 mm

I kind of “eyeballed and comparison measured” off of the attached photo, while assuming the spaces between each trace were 1 mm, and it appears to me like the C114 cap is more likely the 1210 version (i.e., 3.2 mm long by 2.6 mm wide).

Just wondering if that's a possibility and, maybe more importantly, does the sizing really matter if both the 0805 and the 1210 are 2.2uF and 25v?

As long as both are within range to cover and touch the solder pads, it seems like it wouldn't matter much.

{Note: I'll measure the physical cap itself once I get it opened back up, and maybe I'm wrong in assuming the spaces between the traces are 1 mm in width. They might be closer to .6, which would put this back in the “likely 0805” camp for the C114 cap.}

[jetadm123]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

It's probably unrealistic to try and determine the size of something just by looking at a photo. Unless you're willing to open up the set and measure the size of the cap, then you might want to just order a few each of the different sizes that you've narrowed it down to. Tip: use First Class shipping at Digikey for cheaper shipping.

[SLK001]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

It's a 0805 chip. I've dealt with them for years. The unmarked resistors are 0402, so use them to judge the size of the cap in question.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Well, sorry to have bugged you with that last post. I was just able to physically measure it and you guys were right.

It’s 2.0 mm long x 1.2 wide. So, it’s the 0805.

But thanks for the replies. I just read them. Might have a shop up in San Jose where I can get them today.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Just completed some more testing and here are the results:

1) The left-hand and the right-hand lower panel boards are not mirror images of one another in terms of the SMD configurations. There are some similarities, but overall they are probably more dissimilar than similar.

2) As a result, I could not simply match up C114 with anything on the right-hand side in a 1 to 1 correlation that made complete sense.

3) The closest one I could find to the same location read 1,990 on the DMM (diode/continuity mode), whereas the C114 read in the 600's during the brief spells when it was giving any reading at all.

4) I tested all of the SMD's on the right-hand side of the board (again, dozens and dozens of them), and there does appear to be one very small one that might be problematic. It was sitting right next to what appears to be another of the same kind and the good one read 850. The problematic one quickly climbed past the 2000 mark and within just a second or two returned a reading of 1 on the DMM. Please see the picture below.

The confusing thing with this scenario is that the half-picture on the left-hand side of the screen would come in periodically, as we know, and when it did it was largely without flaw. So, maybe this small SMD on the corresponding right-hand side of the back panel (when viewed from the back) is causing a problem and maybe it is not. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Lastly, I did notice that this small, potentially problematic SMD in the picture (circled in red; the one reading 850 is circled in green), was near the VCOM and VCOM ARRAY ..... just like C114 back over on the left side of the set was also. Does this factor into the problem-solving equation?


Sorry for the poor picture quality here. I'm just trying to quickly show the new problem area. I will get better pics of it tonight. If you take the overall length of the tv in mind, this new problem area rests about 4/5 of the way to the right. In other words, it's only about a foot or so from the right-edge of the set itself.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Okay. Got some better images. Didn’t have a magnifying glass handy so I improvised with my eye glasses.

These SMD’s, as you will see, appear to be marked as 43B (or, perhaps 438) and Z16 (or maybe that’s a 216). The one on the left (43B or 438) is the problematic one.

Questions that come to mind are:

1) Are these indeed capacitors, and as such should they both be giving a clear and coherent reading when in Diode/Continuity mode?

2) Can anyone identify them from the photos? I did a Google Image search just now for about 10 minutes to try to find matches and came up with nothing.

3) Is it possible that this 43B (or 438) SMD is only activated when the set is powered on? I am wondering that about C114 too, and perhaps this might be the case because they are both related to the VCOM? I haven’t tested this because I would have to put the T-con to Panel ribbons back in and I’m trying to avoid attaching and detaching them as much as possible so I don’t damage the delicate pins. I can try it if anyone thinks it might be illuminating.

4) Is the best approach at this point to replace C114 with the 0805 2.2uF 25v SMD CAP we’ve previously discussed and check that result before any messing around with this 43B (or 438) SMD? Or, is it better to replace both at the same time since readings are clearly non-existent on both?

Note: I said in a recent post that the “new” problematic SMD was about a foot away from the right-hand edge. In fact, it’s only about 4 inches away from that right-hand edge as evidenced in the 1st photo below and inside the yellow circle. Successively zoomed pictures follow in sequence.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Hello again ~

I've decided to concentrate on the C114 capacitor rather than the 43B/Z16 question. Those last two, I have come to realize, are definitely resistors, based on the fact that I found a quasi-mirror image pair back over on the left-hand side (just above and slightly to the right of C114, in fact, and are marked in the pictures below as R003 and R004) that were much more clearly marked on the board and tested the same as the ones I was questioning that sit on the right-hand side of the back panel.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


So, back to the C114. I took it off with two soldering irons and cleaned up the area around it including the solder pads themselves (again, please see the two pictures below).

Some of the surrounding SMD's may look a little sketchy, but that's more aesthetic than anything because I re-tested them all after the removal of C114 and they test out in the same manner as when I first opened up the bezel.

Went to the local electronics store up in San Jose today and got four of the 2.2uF 25V caps. Got more than I needed, just to have some extras if need be. I also decided to pick up four 1uf 25V and four more 4.7uF 25v in case the 2.2's don't work.


Have a question, though, before I put anything back onto the board. Before in this thread, advice was given to use the 2.2uf cap as that sat closer to the middle of the expected range (meaning, maybe it was 1uf, maybe 2.2 and maybe 4.7 ... so the 2.2 might be the most logical choice).

There's a guy at this shop who tested this supposedly defective cap that I took off the board and brought along with me and it appeared to test out at .94uF. As he and I discussed, it could be that it is actually a 1uf and reading just slightly low. Or, it could be that it is 2.2 or even 4.7 and reading completely out of spec.

Does anyone think that the C114 space is actually calling for a 1uF, then, based on the fact that it seemed to test at .94?

Is it safe for me to try one of the new 1uF caps first, or should I still go with the 2.2uF as my first trial?

What will likely happen to the tv set if I put a 1uF in and it is really calling for a 2.2 (or even calling for the 4.7)? Don't want to do any damage to what is already turning out to be a rather delicate repair.


Note: On the advice of the gentleman at the shop, I also picked up three Dipped Monolithic Ceramic (non-polarized) capacitors ~ one each of the 1uF, 2.2uF and 4.7uf variety. His thought was that I could use these and attach them to the solder pads where C114 lies instead of soldering (and potentially desoldering) the actual SMD's over and over, thereby sparing the viability of the solder pads themselves. Made sense, so I went ahead and purchased them. Maybe the best way to go, then, is to simply spot solder on the 1uF dipped monolithic cap and see what results? I'm asking, because I've never tried this before and again want to make sure that it is a procedure that won't do any harm.


There's a pic now, attached below, of everything I obtained today, with the SMD's on the left and the monolithic ceramic caps on the right.


~ kca

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Realized this morning that I have another problem here, one that I caused when trying to solder and/or clean up the board a couple days ago. If you look at the pictures below you'll see that R009 is now missing. There is a BEFORE picture (with R009 circled in blue) and an AFTER (where it's circled in black). Not good, I know, as it is a 0402 and so small that even if I find it or buy a new one it's going to be hard to replace by hand. Not impossible, but hard.

The solder pads on this missing resistor test at 053 on the Diode/Continuity mode, if that helps to identify it. Didn't matter which way the leads were placed, it returned a reading of 053 either way.

So, does anyone have an idea what rating this resistor would likely have as I'm probably going to have to buy a new one? I can't find the missing one anywhere. It's probably the same as the tiny, unmarked ones that look just like it that are positioned nearby (meaning, the ones in the first image below that are on the left side of the photo .... and appear to be marked as R010 and R013).

~~~~~~~~

As far as the C114 situation goes, I decided to go ahead and solder the 2.2uF monolithic cap in place and see what happened. Not much changed with the picture (still black screen with sound present and power cycling on and off at about 2 minute intervals), but then again I didn't necessarily expect anything much to improve with R009 missing.

The solder pads themselves on C114 read 1970 in Diode/Continuity mode. That matches up with the closest "quasi-mirror image" cap over on the right-hand side, so that was a good sign. The 2.2uF monolithic cap also read 1970 after I soldered it in, so I knew it was a good bond. When the set was powered on, there was no reading at all just climbed up past 2000 and read 1.

When that didn't seem to produce any change or produce any king of picture on screen, I replaced the 2.2uf monolithic with the 1uF monolithic. Same basic results. It too read 1970 when soldered in and returned a reading of 1 when the set was plugged in. No picture appeared on the screen .... but maybe, once again, that is due to the fact that R009 is missing.

So, in review .... Sound was present, just as it was a couple of weeks ago, but the set continues to cycle on and off and does not look like it's much closer to producing a picture on any kind of regular basis than it was before.

Q: Can the missing R009 resistor now be the sole cause of the picture not appearing at all? Just a black screen as it cycles?


Not ready to give up.


As my good friend Rocky Balboa once said:

Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It is a very mean and nasty place. It will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me or nobody is going to hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit, it is about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much you can take and keep moving forward.

[budm]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

R009 may be just jumper, check the resistance of R010, 103 to see if they show <1 Ohm.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Thanks, budm ~

Just checked R010 and R013 and they both come back with a reading of 00.2 in the 200 Ohm range. Anything higher than 200 returned 0, as expected. So, definitely less than 1 Ohm. The 00.2 reading is the exact same as when I simply touch the two DMM probes together and hold there for a few seconds.

What does that mean? I'm not sure what it means when a resistor is just a jumper.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

This may be important: Just also tested the solder pads of R009 itself in the same 200 Ohm range on the DMM and it reads a solid 53.3. Is that telling?



I did find this (see below), on Wikipedia just now, so I think I understand the basics of jumper resistors now. I guess the question is how to best replace R009 then if it is a jumper resistor? And, if it's not a jumper resistor, based on the 53.3 reading off of the pads, what would then be the next step in finding its replacement?


A zero-ohm link or zero-ohm resistor is a wire link used to connect traces on a printed circuit board that is packaged in the same physical package format as a resistor. This format allows it to be placed on the circuit board using the same automated equipment used to place other resistors, instead of requiring a separate machine to install a jumper or other wire.[1] Zero-ohm resistors may be packaged like cylindrical resistors, or like surface-mount resistors.

One use is to allow traces on the same side of a PCB to cross: one trace has a zero-ohm resistor while the second trace runs in between the leads of the resistor, avoiding contact with the first trace.

The resistance is only approximately zero; only a maximum (typically 10–50 mΩ) is specified.[2] A percentage tolerance would not make sense, as it would be specified as a percentage of the ideal value of zero ohms (which would always be zero), so it is not specified.

An axial-lead through-hole zero-ohm resistor is generally marked with a single black band,[3] the symbol for "0" in the resistor color code. Surface-mount resistors are generally marked with a single "0" or "000".

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Did some more reading. Looks like I can just use a wire to connect the two pads where R009 once was. Is that true? Just as a temporary measure, perhaps, until I get ahold of an actual 0 Ohm resistor.

Of course, I need to try to determine for sure that R009 is actually a jumper resistor to begin with.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Using that “mirror image” idea, I’m fairly confident that you’re right, budwich. The R009 on the left side of the board appears to match up with another R009 on the right side. Please see the image below. There was also a R006 on this right side and both of the ones I have circled in white in the photo below caused the DMM to signal (beep) when in Diode/Continuity mode. As you can see, the R009’s on both the left and the right sit adjacent to those other resistors marked as 43B and Z16 (which are R003 and R004, respectively). Pretty hard to argue with the mirror image design here, even though the actual configurations differ slightly.

Therefore, I’m reasoning the same thing will occur when I restore the connection between the solder pads regarding R009 back on the left side. Meaning, the jumper resistor will “jump” once again.

I tried to solder a small wire to craft this connection tonight, but the wire was kind of big (just trimmed a lead off of an old axial resistor), and my solder iron tip was similarly a bit too large. I’ll have to figure out how to do this delicate work so that I can see if I get an image to appear. If so, I’ll put an actual 0 Ohm resistor in there.

Does anyone have any thoughts on a prior question I posed about the C114 situation? Still wanting to know if it’s best to go with a 2.2uF monolithic cap for my testing or just go ahead and try the 1uF. Please see Posts #93 and #94 above. I’m asking this again now with the assumption that my repair of R009 will potentially allow for C114 to do its job properly also if the correct capacitance value cap is utilized.

[kca]

Re: Vizio P-Series 4K tv with temporary sound and no picture P652ui-B2

Since I’m having some trouble affixing a jumper wire ....

I’m wondering, just temporarily, can I simply drop some solder between R009’s two pads to form a connection? Is that both effective and safe to do with the intent, of course, of subsequently powering on the set?

I just want to see if I can get a picture to show on screen when R009 is successfully jumped and C114 is bridged for the time being by a monolithic cap.