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Old 01-17-2018, 02:50 PM   #1421
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
"Looks okayish"?!
WTF that's some of the worst soldering I have ever seen.
And the bodge jobs, what the fuck?
I was going to annote the picture but realized It'd be easier to just put a red circle around the whole thing!
Looking back at it, you're right, but i can't change it to 'Looks like crap' now thanks to the time limit to edit posts.
(Of course a mod can edit it for me (and cross out the '̶O̶k̶a̶y̶i̶s̶h̶'̶ part instead of removing it ))

Last edited by ruky con; 01-17-2018 at 03:02 PM..
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:53 AM   #1422
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
From which close to none are actually coming from Deer, it's just a cheap chinese copy of a cheap chinese copy of a chinese copy of Deer (or another platform for that matter, they have not really invented it). They all look alike, but are still from totally different suppliers. These cheap rebranders often take each shipment from different fab actually.

Rly, with your imagionation, Deer would be the largest PSU manufacturer possibly in the whole UNIVERSE
Wrong.

All of the units above that goodpsusearch shows are indeed made by Deer/L&C/Allied (parent company is Solytech). And yes, they ARE a huge company - maybe not as big as Delta, but probably not that far behind. They just have a crap-ton of different factories for their different PSUs lines: namely Solytech/Allied, Deer, and L&C - all varying in quality from decent to complete crap, respectively. The thing that makes Solytech a big company is volume of sales of low-end units. Because of that, they slap together whatever crap components they can find locally at the time to meet demand - hence the variation in component sizes. But if you look at the design of their PSUs, you can easily tell they are made by the same company. Not only are they very similar from a circuit design standpoint but also from component placement and selection. For example, Solytech often uses those YC (planet logo) caps in their PSUs.

As for circuit similarities, you need to get several older Deer/L&C PSUs from the late 90's and early 2000's, then a few more from 2005 and beyond and compare them all. Starting with the late 90's and early 2000's units, you will be able to see how they change the circuit design each year a little by little to make improvements or cut costs - whichever applies. For example, late 90's and early 2000's Deer PSUs all had a single-transistor feedback-less 5VSB circuit with a 7805 linear regulator for producing the 5VSB. Then around 2002-2003, they started using their 2-transistor 5VSB with a critical cap (always a 50V/22uF, IIRC). Later revisions just saw minor tweaks on the 5VSB circuit, but it was still mostly the same. And around 2007 or later, that's when they started using offline ICs for some of their "higher-end" units (i.e. Allied and Solytech units built for bigger relabelers like Rosewill).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan81
You may be thinking of the crap Meiji/Meico (one of these) based JNCs, which are long extinct.
Exactly.
Now those were really *really* crappy units, btw! That was the first PSU I ever completely gutted for parts. It saved the lives of many other electronics, though!
RIP dear Meico.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan81 View Post
Speaking of Deers, here's a unit I've worked on. Transformers aren't the original ones, they came from another Premier (LC-B400ATX, 400W) that surprisingly had beefy transformers (look at the sizes!) but the rest was paper thin. And yes, I can 100% confirm the main transformer in the pics is a ERL-35 transformer.
...
How many watts would you think it can output in this state? (given I install D209L switching transistors)
As always, don't expect miracles from these units, even if you upgraded all the parts. Given this platforms' low efficiency, I still say 250 Watts continuous and 300W peak, from which probably only 150-160 Watts max can be dedicated to the 12V rail (if even that much). Anything beyond that is pure luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan81 View Post
Main primary caps are 470uF 200v Fuhjyyu LP (though I might replace them with some big Saturn 470uF caps)
Fuhjyyu primary caps are not that bad - at least I've never seen one fail in an old PSU design like this. On an APFC PSU, that might be different, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruky con View Post
The resistor is for the LED and the output voltage is extremely unstable making this power supply almost useless.
Well, with dry solder joints like that, I am surprised it works at all.
Could also be that those 10V caps went bad or the startup cap is bad - those could cause voltage instability as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
"Looks okayish"?!
WTF that's some of the worst soldering I have ever seen.
Then you haven't seen much.
The Aspire/Apevia ATX-AS520W I posted a while back was even more terrible in the SMD department - components were barely in their spots. It's a miracle the whole PSU actually worked. Any SMD work I saw after that looks like the works of Delta compared to that Aspire PSU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodpsusearch View Post
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Currently, I am self-employed, repairing computers and electronic devices (my lab is in my home) and looking for a full time job.
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Last edited by momaka; 01-20-2018 at 06:11 AM..
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Old 01-20-2018, 10:28 AM   #1423
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Bestec-250-12 Z

Ran 2-3 hours per day from early 2006 - late 2010, Pentium 4 506 + XFX FX 5200 (2008) ..

his last words were -Little spark noise with some smell

luckily didn't kill my Mobo

XfX Fx 5200 with "EVERCON 125 c" caps is still working..
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Last edited by jarvis7; 01-20-2018 at 11:52 AM..
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Old 01-20-2018, 11:00 AM   #1424
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

That terrible conductive glue again
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:27 PM   #1425
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post
luckily didn't kill my Mobo
It can't...
Well at least with +5VSB Overvoltage.
Because it has one of those 7/8pin Chips for +5VSB Generation.
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Old 01-21-2018, 06:40 PM   #1426
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post

luckily didn't kill my Mobo
OTOH, the "E" version is known to kill motherboards! (Bestec ATX-250-12E)
But the good news, the "E" was before 2005, IIRC.
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:26 PM   #1427
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJARRRPCGP View Post
OTOH, the "E" version is known to kill motherboards! (Bestec ATX-250-12E)
But the good news, the "E" was before 2005, IIRC.
^This, the "Z" variants still have Jamicon caps (and conductive glue in older ones) and thus still tend to fail after 3-5 years of use, but without the 2-transistor 5VSB and "critical cap" of the "E" models they generally don't take anything with them when they fail (While the "E" models cooked just about every early to mid 2000s E-machines motherboard since virtually all E-machines of this era shipped with a Bestec ATX-250-12E, leading to Bestec's infamous reputation of frying motherboards).
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:49 PM   #1428
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Starting with the late 90's and early 2000's units, you will be able to see how they change the circuit design each year a little by little to make improvements or cut costs - whichever applies. For example, late 90's and early 2000's Deer PSUs all had a single-transistor feedback-less 5VSB circuit with a 7805 linear regulator for producing the 5VSB. Then around 2002-2003, they started using their 2-transistor 5VSB with a critical cap (always a 50V/22uF, IIRC).
Keep in mind that during that time frame the output current for 5VSB outputs was increasing from an amp or less up to 2A-3A. A 7805 won't do that kind of current (and the efficiency hit would be significant).

I remember a 1999 Delta PSU made for Sun Micro that used a Topswitch to develop both secondary side Vcc and a 7805 for the 5VSB. We had to change to a LM317 in that circuit because the out turn-on rise time was too fast for Sun's spec. The divider that set the output voltage let us add a cap that slowed the rise time. I was in Taiwan, helping bring up the first prototype and then hand-carried the completed unit to Sun, my previous employer.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:59 AM   #1429
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodpsusearch View Post
That terrible conductive glue again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
It can't...
Well at least with +5VSB Overvoltage.
Because it has one of those 7/8pin Chips for +5VSB Generation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJARRRPCGP View Post
OTOH, the "E" version is known to kill motherboards! (Bestec ATX-250-12E)
But the good news, the "E" was before 2005, IIRC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
^This, the "Z" variants still have Jamicon caps (and conductive glue in older ones) and thus still tend to fail after 3-5 years of use, but without the 2-transistor 5VSB and "critical cap" of the "E" models they generally don't take anything with them when they fail (While the "E" models cooked just about every early to mid 2000s E-machines motherboard since virtually all E-machines of this era shipped with a Bestec ATX-250-12E, leading to Bestec's infamous reputation of frying motherboards).

Thanks , so is this "Z" variant a decent design ? fully safe for other pc components ? and worth getting it fixed and a recap with all Japanese caps ? for a 120-130 watt system ?

Last edited by jarvis7; 01-24-2018 at 02:26 AM..
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:38 PM   #1430
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post
Thanks , so is this "Z" variant a decent design ? fully safe for other pc components ? and worth getting it fixed and a recap with all Japanese caps ? for a 120-130 watt system ?
It is a decent design, though an older one that won't be the most efficient, but should be fine for a low wattage system like you mention.
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:36 PM   #1431
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
It is a decent design, though an older one that won't be the most efficient, but should be fine for a low wattage system like you mention.

Thank you very much sir , i'll get it fixed then
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:21 PM   #1432
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post
Thanks , so is this "Z" variant a decent design ? fully safe for other pc components ? and worth getting it fixed and a recap with all Japanese caps ? for a 120-130 watt system ?
Yes, absolutely.

In fact, with good caps and most of the conductive glue removed (at least on critical parts), these PSUs become pretty reliable. The 12V rail has a rating of 14 Amps, so technically, you could probably power up to a 150-160W system (i.e. a 60-80W TDP CPU with a 30-45W video card and a single HDD).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
It is a decent design, though an older one that won't be the most efficient...
You'd be surprised. Many of the OEM single-transistor forward PSUs typically manage to stay up in the mid 70's % and occasionally peak around 80% efficiency. I know that's not great, but it's still much better compared to the low/mid-70's % *peak* efficiency of most gutless wonders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post
Thank you very much sir , i'll get it fixed then
Yes, please do! It's so much better than the PSU you posted here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...postcount=2840
That PSU is what needs to go in this thread. It's not the worst I've seen, but I don't recommend you use it for powering a computer. It's probably okay at best for powering fans, LED strips, and some other small electronics projects.
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Old 01-30-2018, 10:08 AM   #1433
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
Yes, absolutely.

In fact, with good caps and most of the conductive glue removed (at least on critical parts), these PSUs become pretty reliable. The 12V rail has a rating of 14 Amps, so technically, you could probably power up to a 150-160W system (i.e. a 60-80W TDP CPU with a 30-45W video card and a single HDD).


Yes, please do! It's so much better than the PSU you posted here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...postcount=2840
That PSU is what needs to go in this thread. It's not the worst I've seen, but I don't recommend you use it for powering a computer. It's probably okay at best for powering fans, LED strips, and some other small electronics projects.
Thanks once again momaka sir

wouldn't bad Crossload performance and out of spec voltages be an issue with this PSU if used with a modern 12v heavy system ? something that 12E had like in this review ?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory2&reid=154

although i plan on using it with Core 2 duo E8400/5700 , G41 type basic system , no GPU and likely no hard drive ( live Linux from pen drive ) ..
i hope it is alright

Also this PSU uses jamicon TK general purpose caps , i'd like to use old motherboard japanese caps if it is safe and alright as too low ESR, it will be a lott cheaper , this PSU has been sitting in storage for past 8 years
I did turn on the PSU a few times to test and the LED light on PSU glows and stays on..


That other PSU is just a spare testing sort of PSU , used for 20-30 mins max once every 5-6 months or so in an already semi-failing P4 system.. and will replace it with this bestec

Thanks a lotttt

Last edited by jarvis7; 01-30-2018 at 10:13 AM..
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Old 01-30-2018, 09:34 PM   #1434
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Here's a real turd, VIO "450W" (yah right) model KY-550ATX.

Here's what the manufacture claims (total BS):




Here's the box (this is an NOS display unit that sat on a shelf at a local PC shop for years):


Lets take a look in side... oh boy (note the bulged caps on the secondary):


Primary, 4 diodes for a bridge rectifier, missing filter components (has 2 y caps and 1 coil), a pair of 330uf 200V caps, and 13007 switching transistors:


Secondary has a F12c20c 12A 200V fast-recovery, SBL2045CT 20A 45V Schottky and CEP51A3 30V 48A MOSFET. Super-Group and JEE caps (2 of which are visibly bulged):


Soldering is pretty bad:




Lets see how it does with some load (this is an old load tester with a 3.3V/5V heavy loads as follows 12V 4A, 5V 10A, 3.3V 12A...

12V rail at 12.767V:


5V rail at 4.8636V:


3.3V rail at 3.3554V:


So the 12V rail is outside ATX spec (12.6V is max), 5V just barely meats spec (4.75V is min), and only the 3.3V rail is solidly within spec.


Got this as part of a lot of mostly older HiPros, those are useful for low-power systems, this thing is only good for parts.
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Last edited by dmill89; 01-30-2018 at 09:49 PM..
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Old 01-31-2018, 04:55 AM   #1435
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

I have one PSU built around the same platform.

It's a Leadman LP-7700.

Also:

"BTX Ready" my ass.
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:57 AM   #1436
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
Here's a real turd, VIO "450W" (yah right) model KY-550ATX.
The moment I saw that model number, I knew it had to be a crappy Sun Pro / Leadman. Dan81 nailed it - it's an LP-7700 platform. Run away

The only good thing about that platform is that it uses a KA7500 PWM chip, so you could easily mod it into an adjustable PSU and probably get anywhere between 1/2 to 2x the output on every rail (except for 3.3V).

I'll probably test that on mine some day, but that would be whenever I don't have anything better to do (and I usually do). Right now, mine (KY-450ATX, posted in this thread many pages ago) is sitting in the closet, case-less, and recapped with crappy (but non-bulging) Stone caps that I got out of a Philips/Magnavox 17" LCD TV that I recapped many years ago. Half of the stone caps in that thing were failed, but the other half appeared good, so they got put back "in service" in this PSU. I figured a crappy PSU deserves a crappy cap job . Besides, anything is better than bulged CS and GL caps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
Here's the box (this is an NOS display unit that sat on a shelf at a local PC shop for years):
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1517371728

Lets take a look in side... oh boy (note the bulged caps on the secondary):
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1517371728
Lol, I guess this PSU has gone past it's expiry/shelf date.
Even certain produce can last longer than that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
Soldering is atrocious on these units. Not to mention the trace separation on the primary-side is an absolute fire hazard. This thing could never pass UL safety, even if it was built with good, proper-sized components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
Lets see how it does with some load (this is an old load tester with a 3.3V/5V heavy loads as follows 12V 4A, 5V 10A, 3.3V 12A...

12V rail at 12.767V... 5V rail at 4.8636V... 3.3V rail at 3.3554V ...
So the 12V rail is outside ATX spec (12.6V is max), 5V just barely meats spec (4.75V is min), and only the 3.3V rail is solidly within spec.
I'm guessing that's with the bad caps.
Mine squealed like a madman due to bad caps on the 5VSB. After the Stone recap, the output voltages were in spec, but... the whole thing just ran so hot. Efficiency must have been barely at 65%, if even that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post
Thanks once again momaka sir

wouldn't bad Crossload performance and out of spec voltages be an issue with this PSU if used with a modern 12v heavy system ? something that 12E had like in this review ?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory2&reid=154
The 12V crossload tests in that review are a bit unrealistic. All motherboard I have seen draw power from the 3.3V rail for the RAM (around 2-3 amps typically) and chipset draws about 2-3 Amps from the 5V rail. So with those slightly increased loads on the 3.3V and 5V rails, the 12V rail will regulate a lot better.

Also, 13A of load on the 12V rail in that review corresponds to 156 Watts - that's more than enough for a Core 2 Quad with onboard graphics and a single HDD. Scale down to a Core 2 Duo, and you can add a 20-40W dedicated video card easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post
Also this PSU uses jamicon TK general purpose caps , i'd like to use old motherboard japanese caps if it is safe and alright as too low ESR, it will be a lott cheaper , this PSU has been sitting in storage for past 8 years
Should be okay.
I did a Bestec ATX-300-12Z and ATX-300-12E with mostly Nichicon HN and HZ caps, and they both worked okay (no oscillations under load). On my ATX-250-12Z, I have a 16V/1500 uF Panasonic FL for one of the caps on the 12V rail, and it hasn't complained.

On that note, the 5VSB and 3.3V rails in most PSUs are pretty much guaranteed to accept motherboard caps (the 5VSB is flyback-type, so ultra low ESR and high ripple current caps are okay with it by default, and the 3.3V in most PSUs is mag-amp regulated, so it's not going to care too much).

The 5V rail is probably the only one where you should try to use more conservatively-rated low ESR caps (if possible), like Chemicon KY/KZE, Rubycon ZL/YXG, or Nichicon HE at most. But all in all, the Bestec PSUs from that era are not too picky about what caps you use. Given that they work with Jamicon caps that are close to general-purpose, you could probably even use general purpose 105C caps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvis7 View Post
That other PSU is just a spare testing sort of PSU , used for 20-30 mins max once every 5-6 months or so in an already semi-failing P4 system..
The duration of the use doesn't matter too much. That PSU is just not safe and could blow up when you least expect it and take all your hardware with it. I just don't gamble with units like that. Loosing even a keyboard or mouse is worth more to me than saving money on using a cheapo PSU.

Last edited by momaka; 01-31-2018 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 01-31-2018, 04:28 PM   #1437
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
I'm guessing that's with the bad caps.
Mine squealed like a madman due to bad caps on the 5VSB. After the Stone recap, the output voltages were in spec, but... the whole thing just ran so hot. Efficiency must have been barely at 65%, if even that.
Just for the heck of it I replaced the visibly bad caps (of course there may be more that aren't visibly bloated, but I wasn't going to waste the time to do a full-recap) with some spare caps (used take outs, not going to waste new caps on this thing) and re-tested, there wasn't much improvement (of course I don't have an oscilloscope so maybe ripple improved some).

The 12V improved slightly to 12.759V, but still out of spec:


5V and 3.3V about the same at 4.8383V and 3.3366V respectively:



as for efficiency (or lack there of), this unit pulled 210W in order to produce 138W of power so 65.7%:


Just for fun here is a side by side comparison with a (legitimate) 250W HiPro HP-D2537F3R that was in the same lot:
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:51 PM   #1438
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Awesome , thanks Momaka sir , won't use that now.. will get bestec fixed

Thanks a ton
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:49 AM   #1439
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

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Originally Posted by momaka View Post
The moment I saw that model number, I knew it had to be a crappy Sun Pro / Leadman. Dan81 nailed it - it's an LP-7700 platform. Run away
PSU.
Was pretty easy to spot given I own one (although modded) powering a S478 Northwood HT 2.8GHz.

I did replace the caps, the fan and the switching transistors on mine though. Fan was a Globe Fan that was failing, replaced with Xinruilian LP, caps replaced with AsiaX and YangChun. Not the best but miles better than the JEE caps, that's for sure. If memory serves me right though, the 5vSB are 2006 Nichicon HMs and the main JEE were replaced with some beefier HEC caps of the same height (I couldn't go higher due to the heatsink being in the way of the caps)

What I do like on this platform is that the heatsinks are fairly thick and they're much easier to remove since they're held with screws attached on ground planes on the underside of the PCB rather than soldered on.

Most of the PSUs I've worked on and gave away to friends in need of them still work to this day and not a complaint yet. One was a iMicro - based Delux I sneaked into a Spire 500W casing and the other was a Premier LC-C400ATX from 2007 that I had replaced the heatsinks on, replaced the 12v Diodes-on-Bracket and new caps of course. The former powered a Core 2 Quad Q8300 w/ a Radeon HD7750 and the latter powered (and is still in use to this day) a Pentium E5300 w/ a Radeon HD3450.
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Old 02-03-2018, 12:54 PM   #1440
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
Just for the heck of it I replaced the visibly bad caps (of course there may be more that aren't visibly bloated, but I wasn't going to waste the time to do a full-recap) with some spare caps (used take outs, not going to waste new caps on this thing) and re-tested, there wasn't much improvement (of course I don't have an oscilloscope so maybe ripple improved some).

The 12V improved slightly to 12.759V, but still out of spec
Lol, I guess it's just that bad of a power supply, then.

Most likely Sun Pro / Leadman put a higher number of turns on the 12V rail, so that the 12V rail wouldn't dip so much with a heavier 12V load to make the PSU "compatible" with a more "modern" 12V-heavy PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
as for efficiency (or lack there of), this unit pulled 210W in order to produce 138W of power so 65.7%

I guess my guess of "65%" wasn't that far off. That's truly terrible, though.

A big part of that comes from the fact that this PSU uses a linear 3.3V rail that is derived from the 5V rail. So with your 12 Amp load on the 3.3V rail, the loses are (4.8383V - 3.3366V) * 12 Amps = 1.5V * 12 Amps = 18.02 Watts of loss just from the 5V-->3.3V rail linear regulator circuit.

So I guess we can give this PSU the benefit of the doubt that with a more realistic PC load (either 5V or 12V heavy instead of 3.3V-heavy), the efficiency should be somewhat better - probably in the low 70% range. That's still laughable, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmill89 View Post
Just for fun here is a side by side comparison with a (legitimate) 250W HiPro HP-D2537F3R that was in the same lot:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1517441164
Be careful not to drop that HiPro on the VIO PSU - it might just crush it completely. And then you won't be able to pull any spare parts from it whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan81
What I do like on this platform is that the heatsinks are fairly thick and they're much easier to remove since they're held with screws attached on ground planes on the underside of the PCB rather than soldered on.
Thick heatsinks? You must have been very lucky! The ones in my unit are paper-thin - I'm not exaggerating at all.

Last edited by momaka; 02-03-2018 at 12:56 PM..
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