An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

You're right, the US part was worded incorrectly.
When a split phase system is used there wont be a neutral to remove.
I never implied to say that removing the ground would change anything.
And when I read my text again I don't see it now either, anyway, sometimes you can stare at your own errors forever and never see them.
That's why I hate coding

Why do you say in a split-phase there won't be a neutral to remove? It's not uncommon for people to run something like 12/3 to a 240VAC wire, however, a lot of people save money and just wire 12/2, for example.

I personally prefer the #/3 wires, so I can have a bare going to the wall-mounted boxes in the basement, and the neutral going to the receptacle, all though, they both end up in the same place on my panel....I just think it looks a bit nicer. Just personal preference. Anyway, I've always called the one wire a neutral and the bare copper one a ground.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

And now we have a water leak! Wonderful fathers day.

Right next to the panel as well. We had money a while back and was going to replace the old lead pipe that's in the basement that goes from the toilet to the black pipe or cast iron, whatever it's called, and then to PVC. I hit my head on that so many times.

There's no trap for the washing machine, which wasn't a problem until we got the line going from the house to the sewage mains replaced. Now there's a smell, so that needs to be fixed too. There's PVC that runs backwards.

I'm not a plumber, but could probably do it and learn the code. Got a quote for all of it which wasn't too bad. Was talked out of it by my wife's family. One of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Technically, I have money to pay for it, but I try to not dip into that money unless I absolutely need to, and now it seems I absolutely need to.

Someone said Home Depot and Lowes have these test kits to test wood to see if there's formaldehyde in it, and then one to check for various molds. I'm going to call them too and have some of this wood tested.

These black spots are worrying me. One area definitely looks like mold growing. Everytime I drill into the wood, not just me, but anyone who's drilled with me, we get sick for a few days. No fever, just chills, really bad headache, blowing nasty black stuff out our noise. I wear a mask for the saw dust, but it doesn't seem to help.

[petehall347]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

neutral is tied to the ground at the entry panel . or just before it and should be at zero volts reference ground .. well thats how it is here with the terra terra system .
i check the integrity of neutral connections to see how much voltage is above ground . it should be zero volts ideally and can and does reveal poor neutral connections .
never ever connect neutral to ground apart from where it enters the property .

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

neutral is tied to the ground at the entry panel . or just before it and should be at zero volts reference ground .. well thats how it is here with the terra terra system .
i check the integrity of neutral connections to see how much voltage is above ground . it should be zero volts ideally and can and does reveal poor neutral connections .
never ever connect neutral to ground apart from where it enters the property .

Neutral and ground are connected together here in our panel, via what I'd call a neutral buss bar. I seem to remember seeing buss-bars where the there was one for neutral, one for ground, and then the neutral buss bar was connected to the ground buss bar.

Here, that is not the case. Here, the person that wired the box, just wired neutral and ground to the same buss-bar. Two buss bars, one on each side. Breakers on the left, the neutral and grounds get wired to the left buss bars. Breakers on the right, neutral and grounds get wired to the right buss-bar.

I probably would have wired it where one bar was for bare copper grounds only, one for neutral, but I guess this works. Is it wrong, in your opinion? The way it is now?

Also, how are you checking the integrity of the neutral wires to see how much above ground? Just putting a DMM between neutral and ground at the receptacle or something?

With my 240VAC receptacles, I run a pig tail from the green screen on the receptacle, a pig tail from the box's raised grounding hole, then use a wire nut to tie them to the bare copper ground in the 12/2.

For the ones the "pro" installed, he just uses a longer copper ground from the romex directly. Wraps it around the green screw, runs it back to the box, uses no wire nuts or anything, and just screws it down.

Personally, I think my way looks nicer, when using 12/2, although, I wish my wife had listened and picked up 12/3 for the 240VAC lines. Then the green screw could have a white neutral, the red would be hot, the copper would go just to the box.

Or would that be completely wrong? Running the neutral to the green screw, which is meant for ground, not neutral?

[budm]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

Safety GND wire is for fault current only in case the hot wire touch the chassis of the equipment which is connected to safety GND, Load current should not be flowing through the safety GND wire.

[redwire]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

I think that's a capacitive-coupling tingle?
Rubber boots should insulate unless they're wet with cracks in the rubber.

It's much worse touching a SMPS mosfet on a heatsink, because it's both high frequency and high voltage - even if you're completely insulated, capacitive coupling gives you a bite.

[eccerr0r]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

You know, I had to look just to confirm my suspicion:
I thought and confirmed the main switch transistor's heatsink is usually hooked up to V- -- so that is, it's not high frequency at all. This is strange because usually this transistor is a enhancement/n-channel or a npn transistor, and the heatsink is usually drain/collector which is the high frequency side. Which means these transistors need to be isolated from the heatsink!!!

I suppose the heatsink is connected to V- for RFI purposes. It can't be hooked up to GND because there would only be one insulation layer.

Just a weird tidbit to think.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

lets get some things clear.
first you should not use "wire nuts" on grounds - ever.
(you shouldnt really use them at all)

second, the ground wire must be rated to hand the maximum current the live can supply.
not what it's rated to carry, but what it can supply before it melts or throws a breaker.
otherwise it's not up to the intended task.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

The fact I passed inspection, I feel there was nothing wrong with the wirenuts. Can someone confirm or tell me why I'm never supposed to use wire-nuts on grounds?

I match the gauge. I always have left over romex from when I cut it. I'll strip one of the wires, use that for my pigtails. Is that wrong?

For BudM:

Can you go a bit more in detail here? Are you saying that my breaker panel is hooked up wrong? That the ground wires should be not connected to the same buss-bar as the neutral wires?

For the 240VAC receptacles, the green screen with the copper wire shouldn't have current on it at all, unless something is wrong? Current shouldn't be flowing through that, from my understanding of how 240VAC works in the US here. I can show how I have my receptacle hooked up with a real pic, and show how the panel is hooked up, if it helps.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

lets get some things clear.
first you should not use "wire nuts" on grounds - ever.
(you shouldnt really use them at all)

second, the ground wire must be rated to hand the maximum current the live can supply.
not what it's rated to carry, but what it can supply before it melts or throws a breaker.
otherwise it's not up to the intended task.

Is it because if a hot breaks loose, we want it touching the bare copper wire to fault, rather than touching a wire nut, and instead of tripping a breaker, when we tear off the faceplate to figure out what's wrong, we risk getting shocked?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

I'm reading 250.8 of the NEC, and it seems wire nut screws for the grounding wires are acceptable, however, just twisting them together is not. That's the way I interrupt the code.

I'll link to the website which gives free access to the latest NEC:

https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/About-the-N...ical-standards

I don't see that website disappearing anytime soon. A free account will be needed to be created in order to access it.

250.8 Termination of Grounding
and Bonding Conductors
(A) Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors, grounding
electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers must terminate in one or
more of the following methods:
(1) Listed pressure connectors
(2) Terminal bars
(3) Pressure connectors listed for grounding and bonding
(4) Exothermic welding
(5) Machine screws that engage at least two threads or are secured with a nut,
(6) Self-tapping machine screws that engage at least two threads
(7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
(8) Other listed means

Further googling shows that something such as wire nuts are required. By that, I don't mean you need to use wire nuts, but you cannot simply leave them tied together. There needs to be something that keeps the ground wires connected together, and twisting them is not considered enough.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

well it's 2 seperate things.
first the earth thickness.

if live shorts to earth, you want that earth to carry whatever the live can supply into ground until the breaker trips without the wiring sparking or catching fire.

as for wire nuts, wires should always be joined with teminal blocks IMO with screws pressing the wires against a (usually) brass sleeve.

wire nuts / twist caps or whatever people like to call them dont put pressure on the wires, dont hold them securely if they get pulled, and they are plastic - so they can melt.

they used to be used here for telephone splicing once.
nobody trusts them now because you cant see in them or tug them to check if they are tight safely.

as for "codes", i dont give a fuck.
there are things different country's allow - that does not mean you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

in australia for example, they can twist the wires as long as they solder them and then cover them in pvc tape.
that's a 240v country btw - fuck that!!!

twisting and soldering is electrically sound but will pull apart very easily - yet it's not only allowed but very common.

[eccerr0r]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

There are some wire nuts that have a metal sleeve in them that does the biting on the bare metal. I'd think these should be secure.

The metal-less wire nuts agreed are not much better than just twisting the wires together and only good for signal wire (telephone, hvac thermostat, etc.).

I suspect that if the wire nut plastic melts, chances are, the insulation on the wire will also melt, so the fact it melts may be moot.

[stj]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

remember it's function, if it melts you risk the wires eventually seperating.
why is this even a conversation? dont the metal boxes have an earthing terminal for joining the wires?

[petehall347]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

wires are better being soldered first regardless of clamps or nuts . never seen it done though .

[eccerr0r]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

There are plastic boxes nowadays

[petehall347]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

There are plastic boxes nowadays

yes .. i throw those away .. plastic crap .. saying that metal front sockets made for heavy duty with switches are crap . switches fail quickly with a welder . no idea why sockets are switched anyway . simply pull the plug

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

well it's 2 seperate things.
first the earth thickness.

if live shorts to earth, you want that earth to carry whatever the live can supply into ground until the breaker trips without the wiring sparking or catching fire.

as for wire nuts, wires should always be joined with teminal blocks IMO with screws pressing the wires against a (usually) brass sleeve.

wire nuts / twist caps or whatever people like to call them dont put pressure on the wires, dont hold them securely if they get pulled, and they are plastic - so they can melt.

they used to be used here for telephone splicing once.
nobody trusts them now because you cant see in them or tug them to check if they are tight safely.

as for "codes", i dont give a fuck.
there are things different country's allow - that does not mean you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

in australia for example, they can twist the wires as long as they solder them and then cover them in pvc tape.
that's a 240v country btw - fuck that!!!

twisting and soldering is electrically sound but will pull apart very easily - yet it's not only allowed but very common.

For codes, we have to meet them, but how we meet them is our decision (well, the inspectors decision), so we just cannot ignore them.

For terminal blocks, how the hell do you fit them in a gang box? I could see in a panel or something, where we use the terminal blocks, but in a single gang box? Most are plastic....we just went for metal because they're on the wall in the basement. I just don't see how you could put a terminal block in a 1-gang plastic box to hook ground wires together, plus the light switch. In those cases, I think soldering / wire nut works just fine.

The wire nuts I use are covered in plastic, much like your PVC tape, but are all metal inside. The plastic, I believe, is just a safety precaution so if it's hot and you grab it, you're not touching the metal inside of it.


Anyway, the professional electrician came back out, replaced the double pole breaker, admitted that was wrong, but was able to successfully break all the other ones loose, minus the ground and suggests I cut it and use another place.

We've came to the conclusion that the driver I was using just wasn't quiet right. They're so close to identical, it's insane. Mine's a Stainley, his is the Journeyman's series made by Kliens. The handle seems to be the key. Mine is uncomfortable as hell, hard plastic. His is so much more comfy and easier to grab.

I ordered an expensive, but good set of the Journeyman's series made by Klien tools. Hard to find new, I think they discontinued them. He was under the impression that he bought the last 7.

Says his guys don't use power tools for tightening them. I showed how the heads where all ruined, and he says that happens when you tighten them because of the copper. I guess he says it's common to have the heads ruined like that when they're tightened.

I dunno, seems wrong to me. Was thinking now that he broke all but one loose, I might find new lugs and replace them all, and just tighten them to spec. I heard they make a torque screwdriver or something. I might look into that.

[RJARRRPCGP]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

Looks like the NFPA DRM'ed the online version, like they think they're a motion picture company! Are they affiliated with the MPAA? I hope not!

And thus, there's a good chance I would just buy some of their stuff, because at least for the free version, they have the balls to say that we cannot even print them! Talking about Knox'ing them alright!! As if it were a fictional work, opposed to a factual work!

This is more of a .com-type of 'tude! More like I expect from UL, LOL. The printing prohibition, sounds more like the modus operandi of a .com, especially UL!

IMHO, I would like to know what the EFF has to say about this... Will the EFF say that they're as bad as John Deere or Ford?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

Looks like the NFPA DRM'ed the online version, like they think they're a motion picture company! Are they affiliated with the MPAA? I hope not!

And thus, there's a good chance I would just buy some of their stuff, because at least for the free version, they have the balls to say that we cannot even print them! Talking about Knox'ing them alright!! As if it were a fictional work, opposed to a factual work!

This is more of a .com-type of 'tude! More like I expect from UL, LOL. The printing prohibition, sounds more like the modus operandi of a .com, especially UL!

IMHO, I would like to know what the EFF has to say about this... Will the EFF say that they're as bad as John Deere or Ford?

I know, right! And do you see how much the new code book costs? Usually over 100$ for soft cover. I think the reason they DRMed it was so they could charge for a downloadable PDF version, which they do. All about the benjamins!