Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #41
    Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

    As long as the overall cross section area was not compromised, it's not any worse. The problem is if any contacts no longer tightly contacts the wire.

    Sometimes I wonder if GFCIs should "zap" someone with 6mA or so for a second before cutting out. This would teach people a lesson not to trifle with electricity... ha ha ha...

    Comment


      #42
      Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

      There is torque spec as to how tight those screws are supposed to be tightened to. That wire is not good any more. Poor training, poor supervision....
      Never stop learning
      Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

      Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

      Inverter testing using old CFL:
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

      Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
      http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

      TV Factory reset codes listing:
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

      Comment


        #43
        Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

        those things mostly trip because of bad or damp wiring.
        though they are a good idea if you work outdoors with tools or a lawn mower incase it rains.

        Comment


          #44
          Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

          Originally posted by budm View Post
          There is torque spec as to how tight those screws are supposed to be tightened to. That wire is not good any more. Poor training, poor supervision....
          Yes, and I could only remove the two out of the four that I tried. Then I gave up and am waiting till a decent hour to call the father and tell him we have an issue. He's a professional certified electrician that is well respected in the professional electrical community in my area, but he should have been watching his son. We first failed inspection because the white hot his son ran to a 240VAC wasn't marked black, and you could see where they tried unscrewing it and stripping the screw on the breaker! That means they knew they had messed up, but instead of manning up, they left it.

          We're working on fixing all the wiring issues in the basement right now, which involves removing a lot of dead circuits that go nowhere, but also, rewiring the lights, the receptacles, etc. The way they're ran now makes no sense at all. They run forwards just to run backwards. There's more junction boxes down there then there are lights or receptacles! It's insane.

          So one by one, I was replacing circuits. Can't do that now, and I think the proper fix is for them to come back and replace the entire panel with a new one for free. If it was my son, I would make him do the work while I watched, because he's the one that needs to learn how to properly tighten those bolts on the buss bar and the breakers. I can't do squat now.

          The buss bars look like they're non-removable. I'm sure it's the cheapest ~200-amp 42 slot panel they could buy. It looks like aluminum, which is even more reason to pay attention to the torque setting. I hand tighten them with a screw driver, wait about 30 minutes, go back, snug them back up. That is how I was taught, might not be right, but I don't have any type of drivers that can measure torque. I have a torque wrench for sockets, but that wouldn't work for obvious reasons.
          -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

          Comment


            #45
            Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

            Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post
            As long as the overall cross section area was not compromised, it's not any worse. The problem is if any contacts no longer tightly contacts the wire.

            Sometimes I wonder if GFCIs should "zap" someone with 6mA or so for a second before cutting out. This would teach people a lesson not to trifle with electricity... ha ha ha...
            It is worse though, I cannot remove the wires. Like Stj was saying, there's very old wire down there that isn't what I consider to be in good shape at all. Heck, on one of the receptacles I opened up, the hot wire was showing bare copper in various spots, like someone stripped the sheath and then pulled it through metal or something.

            I paid what I consider a good amount of money for a professional installation, but I do not consider this professional at all. Not being able to remove the hot from just about any breaker, not being able to remove the neutral or ground from the buss bar. I can cut the wires to the breakers and replace them, but what about the buss bar?

            Even the two I removed, the screws where already stripped. All of them are. When the kid tightened them, he obviously had his tool on way too high of a torque setting. It just ruined them. I do not understand why he didn't stop and adjust it after the first one. If you see you're ruining the bolt there, why keep going and ruin the rest??
            -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

            Comment


              #46
              Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

              In the kitch, there's three switches next to each other. One is a three-way switch, and on the other side of the kitchen is the other three-way for that switch. In the dining room, there's three switches next to the door, one is a three-way, and the other three-way is by the stairs.

              So far, every single one of them (except the three by the door) make a burning noise and show a blue light if you hold the switch half way. That's not right. We noticed it after the new panel, but not before. That doesn't mean it's related though.

              Anyway, with the three by the door, I had to take the plate off one day and noticed it was a very old metal gang box. Really old school, not like the ones they make now. The previous owner had a boyfriend (kid) who removed most of the lathe and plaster, rewired the house (removed the knob and tube), and did most of the plumbing. But he did stuff very wrong with plumping and with wiring that scares me.

              Even in the bathroom, the GFCI, we thought it was bad. It wasn't. The ground from the Romex wasn't hooked up. It went into the gang box, and he used a wire nut to tie it into the ground leaving the gang box. Same with the light switches by the door. I ran a pigtail from the metallic gang box to the switches and replaced a switch I accidently broke. But even those three switches, if held in the middle just right, make the crackling noise, but not nearly as bad.

              Every receptacle I've replaced has been the same. No ground hooked up. Sometimes, we get a very short dim in the lights in the living room. It lasts just a second. The light will dim, and then come right back on. This is the entire reason we have permits and inspections.

              When I got my work inspected, I failed the first time because the professional electrician's trainie didn't mark a 240VAC receptacles white hot wire black. I had to do that. But the inspector was so impressed with my work (he really loved how I used heat shrink for the white hot wires and said that's the proper way and not even the pros do that!), I told him how the rest of the house was, and how I wanted to fix it, but was worried about the costs and the drawings. Permit is 50$ plus 5$ for every 1,000$ or something, and then each inspection, whether you fail or pass is 90$.

              He said so long as I keep it up to code, ask any questions I got, send his cell pics of the rough wiring to make sure it's right, and pics when it's done, he'll just say that he inspected it all during the first visit. I sent him the pics of the white wire taped black (no way to get it free) and he passed us. He said the inspections and permits are mostly to make sure people who don't know what they're doing don't get hurt.

              Chances are good, none of the grounds are hooked up at all. I'm going to have to look at every junction box, tear open every faceplate, hook it up if it ain't. Do you guys think this is what's causing the switches to make the crackling noise and show the blue sparks? Or is that "normal" when held just right?

              In the dining room, the thing that worries me, the ceiling fan light, sometimes it dims for just a few seconds. We're not doing anything, like running a vacuum. All 20-amp or higher breakers, except for the lightning and surge protector breakers, which are 15-amp. I figured our house inspector when we bought the house would have noticed all these issues, but I guess the lesson is to never hire an inspector that your realtor recommends.
              Last edited by Spork Schivago; 06-16-2018, 05:40 AM.
              -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

              Comment


                #47
                Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                Just remember - too tight is better than too loose. I can't fault anyone that tightens wire connectors too tight as long as they don't pinch things completely off.

                You should never hold a switch part way and make the crackling sound. Unfortunately the "quiet" switches are easier to hold part way, Holding a switch part way is like running a transistor in forward active mode - dissipation is highest here, you'll destroy the switch. This is "user error" or if you must "switch design error" that lets one hold part way.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                  this sounds like the panel was wired with a battery drill with a screwdriver atachement.
                  fuckers.

                  personally i have a real electric screwdriver with a variable clutch to avoid thread stripping.
                  even then, i would never use it to do up any wiring!

                  as for switches, any switch will have a sweetspot where it can arc, but the switching action should be fast enough to minimise it.
                  but the more it arc's, the worse it will get from contact-burn and carbon buildup.

                  maybe you can strip them to clean and inspect the contacts.
                  here some switches are screwed together, while other makes use rivets.
                  Last edited by stj; 06-16-2018, 12:13 PM.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                    probably those drills, it can provide quite a bit of torque due to the handle.
                    Don't know, I think it would probably still be okay. Again, tighter is better than loose, as long as it doesn't break.

                    The arcing depends on the switch. Again I think most of the "quiet" switches have a bigger transition period to reduce noise. The noisy, tighter action switches have less of a transition period and won't arc as much. These are the "heavy duty" switches, alas, I think people prefer the quiet switches... electricians like them, more work for them as they wear out...

                    I've been looking at these switches. Looks like most of the Leviton/Legrand are riveted nowadays, likely for costs. I don't have any Cooper(Eaton) samples to look at. However, you can likely get a self tapping screw to replace the rivets once they are drilled out - which is easy to do.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                      i like the ones that arc as they will manage to fire up a tube light with bad starter .

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                        Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
                        I look at AC as a wave. I realize the voltage is not always 120VAC. That's the peak. With the above setup, when you have just two hots, you're saying one of them will act like a neutral...would it be both would be hot but also act like a neutral? With the one hot sending the wave down to the receptacle and then the other hot, back to ground (earth), and the other wire doing the same? This is where I get confused, when you remove the neutral and ground, and just have two hots. I would have thought you wouldn't get a receptacle to work in a situation like that. But it seems it would work and the neutral and ground are just for safety. Please correct me where I'm wrong here. I have not tested the above situation, it's just based on how I interrupted something someone said to me, who seemed to know a lot about AC and had a truly fundamental understanding.
                        I've already answered this question in my previous post.
                        But yes, in a two phase system without a dedicated neutral each wire would take turns being a neutral during each cycle of the sine wave.

                        In the US if you have an outlet with two hots it's a 240VAC outlet, so called "split phase"
                        If you remove the neutral and ground it's still a 240VAC outlet.
                        If you remove one hot and leave the neutral & ground it's a 120VAC outlet
                        Please notice that this is 180° apart.

                        In (most of) Europe if you have an outlet with two hots then someone has fucked up, outlets should not be wired like that here. (You will have 400VAC).
                        In a correctly wired outlet you will have a hot, neutral and ground with 230VAC
                        If you remove the neutral or ground you will have zero voltage.
                        Coming back to the example with 400VAC what you normally would have is a 3-phase outlet, each phase is 120° apart.
                        In theory you could have a two phase outlet, but that does not exist here.
                        If you need it your machine will be wired directly to the panel, or to a 3-phase outlet but only utilizing two phases...


                        Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
                        If I were to replace the 200-amp MAINS breaker with a 200-amp MAINS GFCI breaker, that should essentially make all of the breakers that aren't GFCI equivalent to GFCI, and make all the non-GFCI receptacles equivalent to GFCI receptacles, correct?
                        Yes


                        Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
                        So a more advanced question then. GFCI is better than Tamper Proof you're saying, but GFCI tamper proof is better than just GFCI. Now say we install either GFCI breakers or arc-fault breakers or GFCI / arc-fault breakers.

                        Would tamper proof still be needed?
                        Yes of course, a GFCI can only trip when the current takes another route to ground than via the neutral conductor.
                        If you decide to put two nails into the power jack and touch them you are just a normal load and the only thing that can interrupt that current flow is the normal breaker.
                        Humans are pretty well dead when that happens.
                        "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                          Originally posted by Per Hansson View Post
                          I've already answered this question in my previous post.
                          But yes, in a two phase system without a dedicated neutral each wire would take turns being a neutral during each cycle of the sine wave.

                          In the US if you have an outlet with two hots it's a 240VAC outlet, so called "split phase"
                          If you remove the neutral and ground it's still a 240VAC outlet.
                          If you remove one hot and leave the neutral & ground it's a 120VAC outlet
                          Please notice that this is 180° apart.

                          In (most of) Europe if you have an outlet with two hots then someone has fucked up, outlets should not be wired like that here. (You will have 400VAC).
                          In a correctly wired outlet you will have a hot, neutral and ground with 230VAC
                          If you remove the neutral or ground you will have zero voltage.
                          Coming back to the example with 400VAC what you normally would have is a 3-phase outlet, each phase is 120° apart.
                          In theory you could have a two phase outlet, but that does not exist here.
                          If you need it your machine will be wired directly to the panel, or to a 3-phase outlet but only utilizing two phases...



                          Yes



                          Yes of course, a GFCI can only trip when the current takes another route to ground than via the neutral conductor.
                          If you decide to put two nails into the power jack and touch them you are just a normal load and the only thing that can interrupt that current flow is the normal breaker.
                          Humans are pretty well dead when that happens.
                          this bit aint quite right ... removing ground should not affect the voltage .
                          If you remove the neutral or ground you will have zero voltage.

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                            Originally posted by stj View Post
                            this sounds like the panel was wired with a battery drill with a screwdriver atachement.
                            fuckers.

                            personally i have a real electric screwdriver with a variable clutch to avoid thread stripping.
                            even then, i would never use it to do up any wiring!

                            as for switches, any switch will have a sweetspot where it can arc, but the switching action should be fast enough to minimise it.
                            but the more it arc's, the worse it will get from contact-burn and carbon buildup.

                            maybe you can strip them to clean and inspect the contacts.
                            here some switches are screwed together, while other makes use rivets.
                            Okay. Now, the only reason we found this "sweet spot" was because when we flip the ones by the back door normal like, it makes the crackling noise and the light. We found the sweet spot by investigating.

                            Good to know the other switches are fine. Maybe it's time to replace the ones by the back door though. When you flip it at night and you see a blue flash behind the cover, that's a bit nerve racking.
                            -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                            Comment


                              #54
                              Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                              Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post
                              probably those drills, it can provide quite a bit of torque due to the handle.
                              Don't know, I think it would probably still be okay. Again, tighter is better than loose, as long as it doesn't break.

                              The arcing depends on the switch. Again I think most of the "quiet" switches have a bigger transition period to reduce noise. The noisy, tighter action switches have less of a transition period and won't arc as much. These are the "heavy duty" switches, alas, I think people prefer the quiet switches... electricians like them, more work for them as they wear out...

                              I've been looking at these switches. Looks like most of the Leviton/Legrand are riveted nowadays, likely for costs. I don't have any Cooper(Eaton) samples to look at. However, you can likely get a self tapping screw to replace the rivets once they are drilled out - which is easy to do.
                              Yeah, but there's a torque specification for a reason. I can take one of those wires, move it forward, and have it completely break off.

                              Almost all the bolts or whatever you want to call them are stripped from where he installed them. There's no way to work on them. I can cut the wires from the breakers and install a new one.

                              I tighten them, and then come back, and tighten them 30 minutes or so later. I keep doing that till I cannot hand tighten them anymore. But no one should ever tighten something to the point where it makes it impossible to untighten or completely strip the head.

                              I think we're just gonna have to disagree here on this one. Hopefully the electrician will agree with me, that his son messed up, and come fix it. We have a lot of wire to replace and fix. This used to be a duplex and was wired for two different houses. That's why we have wires that run to one end of the house, to a junction box, run back to the other, to another junction box, and then goes up through the floor. The idea was to just unhook it from the panel, run a new wire, up to code, directly to the second junction, and remove all that extra unneeded wire.

                              I did it with just one run and have maybe 50 foot of extra wire that wasn't needed. I know that's a lot, but that's what it was. Was working on the second one, and realized the panel / breaker box. I got lucky with the first one and was able to break it loose without damaging the screw. But the second one, I haven't even touched the breaker because the screw is sooooooo stripped. It's just destroyed. I started looking at the other ones, and all of them are like that. Just ruined! To me, that's way to tight.
                              -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                                Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
                                We first failed inspection because the white hot his son ran to a 240VAC wasn't marked black, and you could see where they tried unscrewing it and stripping the screw on the breaker!
                                Woops!
                                ASRock B550 PG Velocita

                                Ryzen 9 "Vermeer" 5900X

                                16 GB AData XPG Spectrix D41

                                Sapphire Nitro+ Radeon RX 6750 XT

                                eVGA Supernova G3 750W

                                Western Digital Black SN850 1TB NVMe SSD

                                Alienware AW3423DWF OLED




                                "¡Me encanta "Me Encanta o Enlistarlo con Hilary Farr!" -Mí mismo

                                "There's nothing more unattractive than a chick smoking a cigarette" -Topcat

                                "Today's lesson in pissivity comes in the form of a ziplock baggie full of GPU extension brackets & hardware that for the last ~3 years have been on my bench, always in my way, getting moved around constantly....and yesterday I found myself in need of them....and the bastards are now nowhere to be found! Motherfracker!!" -Topcat

                                "did I see a chair fly? I think I did! Time for popcorn!" -ratdude747

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                                  Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
                                  Yeah, but there's a torque specification for a reason. I can take one of those wires, move it forward, and have it completely break off.
                                  Yes there's a torque specification, it needs to be met. Not that I want to damage anything due to overtightening - as if you break the threads, it's not tight anymore. I just worry about loose connections in general.

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                                    Originally posted by petehall347 View Post
                                    this bit aint quite right ... removing ground should not affect the voltage .
                                    If you remove the neutral or ground you will have zero voltage.
                                    You're right, the US part was worded incorrectly.
                                    When a split phase system is used there wont be a neutral to remove.
                                    I never implied to say that removing the ground would change anything.
                                    And when I read my text again I don't see it now either, anyway, sometimes you can stare at your own errors forever and never see them.
                                    That's why I hate coding
                                    "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                                      Originally posted by Per Hansson View Post
                                      I've already answered this question in my previous post.
                                      But yes, in a two phase system without a dedicated neutral each wire would take turns being a neutral during each cycle of the sine wave.
                                      This probably gets annoying but what I do is try to reword what I learn in my own words sometimes to make sure I have a fundamental understanding of it. I apologize for doing that, it's just a habit. Maybe if I replace my question marks with periods, it'd be less annoying. Just trying to get confirmation I truly understand, that's all.

                                      Originally posted by Per Hansson View Post
                                      In the US if you have an outlet with two hots it's a 240VAC outlet, so called "split phase"
                                      If you remove the neutral and ground it's still a 240VAC outlet.
                                      If you remove one hot and leave the neutral & ground it's a 120VAC outlet
                                      Please notice that this is 180° apart.
                                      It has to be 180° apart so when L1 is at something like +77VAC, L2 would be at -77VAC, right? And with three phase, 120° apart, so two will always be opposite sign of the other, right?

                                      Originally posted by Per Hansson View Post
                                      In (most of) Europe if you have an outlet with two hots then someone has fucked up, outlets should not be wired like that here. (You will have 400VAC).
                                      In a correctly wired outlet you will have a hot, neutral and ground with 230VAC
                                      If you remove the neutral or ground you will have zero voltage.
                                      Coming back to the example with 400VAC what you normally would have is a 3-phase outlet, each phase is 120° apart.
                                      In theory you could have a two phase outlet, but that does not exist here.
                                      If you need it your machine will be wired directly to the panel, or to a 3-phase outlet but only utilizing two phases...
                                      Nice to know.

                                      Originally posted by Per Hansson View Post
                                      Yes of course, a GFCI can only trip when the current takes another route to ground than via the neutral conductor.
                                      If you decide to put two nails into the power jack and touch them you are just a normal load and the only thing that can interrupt that current flow is the normal breaker.
                                      Humans are pretty well dead when that happens.
                                      That was a mis-type with the tamper proof, probably just a careless mistake. Obviously, the GFCI / arc-fault wouldn't protect anyone from getting shocked.

                                      What I meant to ask would it make any sense to install the GFCI / Tamper Proof receptacles at that point? Only reasons I could think of was 1) When we go to resell the house, maybe people would look at them and think nice?

                                      2) If we trip something, instead of running all the way down the basement, we could just reset it at the receptacle. However, with the price of those GFCI / Tamper Proof receptacles, if we install all GFCI breakers (I cannot find a 200-AMP main GFCI breaker for the panel we have, so I'll probably have to replace all the smaller ones (the two 15-amp that have wires ran in tandem just to the lightning / surge protector, and the 20-amp, and 50-amp ones)), I think walking down the stairs to reset a breaker once in a very great while would be worth the trip.

                                      The GFCI / Tamper Proof receptacles appear to be fairly high quality. They're Leviton. I'm wondering if the tamper proof ones are just as high quality or not.
                                      -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                                        Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post
                                        Yes there's a torque specification, it needs to be met. Not that I want to damage anything due to overtightening - as if you break the threads, it's not tight anymore. I just worry about loose connections in general.
                                        I see what you're saying. So, by him breaking the bolts, literally destroying them, you agree we have a problem then.

                                        You're just saying it's better to have them over tightened past specs, so long as nothing is getting damaged, rather than have one too loose and a wire come out or something. I believe I understand.
                                        -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          Re: An idiotic question about AC and shocks.

                                          Originally posted by petehall347 View Post
                                          this bit aint quite right ... removing ground should not affect the voltage .
                                          If you remove the neutral or ground you will have zero voltage.
                                          Not in the US with 240VAC receptacles, if we have the two 120VAC hots running to them (some parts in the US have three-phase I guess).

                                          You can remove the neutral and ground and your device will still power. To do a test, if you have a DMM, take a 240VAC receptacle with just the two hots wired up, put the DMM in VAC, put one probe on one of the hots, put the COM probe (usually black) on the other hot, and you should see 240VAC.

                                          No neutral or ground, but 240VAC. If you hook up the ground or neutral, and move one of your probes from one of the hots to the ground / neutral, you'll see 120VAC, not 240VAC. I just never understood why until now.
                                          -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X