Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

[momaka]

I guess Lithium batteries have been a hot topic lately. Well, here's my dilemma:

Basically, I have two Li-Ion battery packs for my Dell C-series laptop, and they are quite old I believe. They are rated 14.6V, 4460 mAh, and 66 Whr. Both batteries are functional and still hold *some* charge: I can get about 50-60 minutes run time while using Word or other office software, and about 30 minutes with software that uses the CPU more heavily. So clearly, their capacity has dropped quite a bit from what it was originally (my laptop states about 3 hours and 40 minutes with the battery fully charged… but of course, that time drops much quicker). I keep the batteries disconnected from my laptop almost all of the time and only charge them when I know I will need them – which is usually no more than a few times a year when I visit relatives. In the meantime, I keep the batteries stored in my room. I try to charge them to 60-70% every few months so that they don't go dormant. (Actually, one of the packs was originally dormant when I got it about 5 years ago and would refuse to charge at all. But after forgetting it in a spare laptop for a while one day, it suddenly decided that it will charge and has been working ever since.) They usually drop to 30-50% between those charges. Also, both battery packs are original Dell batteries with all of the proper safety marks (UL number on one is E73362, which points to Sony, while the other has E17935). Sticker on the bottom says Made in Japan for both, too. Cells inside are standard 18650s, I believe.

Anyways, my main question for you all is:
Is there any danger or risk of fire of using very old Lithium batteries, even if they are still somewhat functional?
And if not, do you have any recommended safer way to keep/store them?

Basically, I don't want them to catch fire and burn my house down (especially since houses here in the U.S. are all made from wood and OSB). Comments, questions, concerns? Please let me know.

[kaboom]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

I've seen dell craptops either limit the CPU speed or give somewhat silly warnings about "replace battery for full performance."

Dell liked to lean on the battery in their cheap/old models. They lied, saying the adapter was too small and the unit needed power from both the battery and PS at the same time to feed the "hungry" CPU.

This is not true; in several schematics, MOSFETs disconnect the battery-to-system power path anytime the adapter is connected. It's impossible for both to power the system in the combined way they allege.

The real reason, of course, was to cripple the systems unless you had a "genuine" dell battery pack; the situation of a dead genuine pack still causes this in certain models.

I tried a 90W adapter instead of the original 65W one for a certain craptop. Still throttled. With the 65W, the 1.5GHz CPU ran at 750MHz; it ran at 1 or 1.25GHz with the 90W one.



Gotta love the "bad old days" of dell.

[momaka]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

^ That's probably the Latitude D series -era and onwards. The C series (what I have) use the older adapter that doesn't have that serial communication with the motherboard to tell it is genuine or not. Not sure about the batteries, but I don't think they do that either. The Latitude C series laptops are from the Windows 95/98/2000/NT era - a little before Dell and HP began to run various charades.

Anyways my question is regarding whether the Lithium batteries are too old and becoming a fire hazard. I've never actually seen Lithium batteries this old to hold any charge whatsoever. Most new batteries today last 3-5 years max. Mine are likely close to 15 years.

[ChaosLegionnaire]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

unfortunately for you, battery manufacturers only specify the battery lifespan in number of charge/discharge cycles NOT chronological age or calendar life. look at this wikipedia article about lithium battery self discharge and lifespan.

my assertion here is that since u keep your batteries well maintained and charge them frequently even tho they are unused, therefore they are fine despite their chronological age. however, i do not know if an unused lithium battery degrades like a cap does as they both contain electrolyte. one would assume that the japanese are aware of how electrolyte degrades in a cap the same way it does in a lithium battery and thus added stabilisers to them. charging a lithium battery frequently *might* function in the same way as reforming a cap regularly to prevent it from shorting internally due to high voltages since caps and batteries are quite similar by nature.

if u are concerned as the battery degrades with each charge/discharge cycle, then you should just monitor and touch the battery occasionally during charging to monitor the temperature. the battery is made in japan and should have a reliable and working protection ic anyway to cut things off when shit happens.

u can also buy a fire extinguisher ( i recommend carbon dioxide or co2 based fire extinguishers for putting out indoor lithium battery electrical fires) and put it in your room or anywhere nearby where u are charging a lithium battery within easy reach. also do NOT put lithium batteries to charge in an area of the house near doorways or along the common corridor(s). if it catches fire, it will cut off your escape route and you're focked if that happens.

next, you can also visit the local fire station closest to your house during their open house days and ask them to teach you some firefighting and how to use a fire extinguisher correctly in case shit happens and the protection ic fails to stop a battery fire from starting. a lot of ppl do not know how to use a fire extinguisher correctly and aim it at the wrong part of the fire.

if u take the precautions i wrote above, ppl will be hard pressed to say your house burnt down because u were careless with your lithium batteries. i dont think u will go through what happened in singapore with one of our households who had a lithium battery fire disaster.

[TechGeek]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

^^^Regarding battery fires: Me and my friend were destroying an old LG Optimus Dynamic II and we kinda forgot to remove the battery. Turns out that the battery caught fire. The fire extinguisher saved out tails.

[momaka]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

unfortunately for you, battery manufacturers only specify the battery lifespan in number of charge/discharge cycles NOT chronological age or calendar life. look at this wikipedia article about lithium battery self discharge and lifespan.

Seems like so.

However, from what I've been reading, the electrolyte does degrade over time, regardless how it is stored. Thus, it is possible for the cell to short out eventually. So I guess it may be time to get these recycled. Anyone else agree?

however, i do not know if an unused lithium battery degrades like a cap does as they both contain electrolyte.

According to the Wikipedia article, YES. (Then again, everything deteriorates over time, so that shouldn't be surprising.)

if u are concerned as the battery degrades with each charge/discharge cycle, then you should just monitor and touch the battery occasionally during charging to monitor the temperature.

I'm not really concerned about their capacity at all. What I am concerned about is having them catch fire while sitting in storage unused.

Simply put, I don't really care if I don't have a battery for my laptop anymore. But at the same time, I don't want to throw away something that may actually be safe and could still have good life left in it - which is why I created this thread. Basically, I'd like to know if it's safe to keep these batteries and continue to use them or is it time to get rid of them?

Also, if anyone is interested, you can have them for free if you pay the shipping. Heck, if you are close to where I am, I might even ship it at no cost to you. If it's under $10, I don't mind. A crappy fast food menu costs almost as much, and that stuff isn't even good for you .

the battery is made in japan and should have a reliable and working protection ic anyway to cut things off when shit happens.

I'm sure it does.
But if a cell shorts internally due to being too old, I don't think anything will stop it from venting/overheating/exploding/catching fire. Give than the chemical/fire energy inside a cell can be around 100 kJ / Ah, that's quite a bit.

u can also buy a fire extinguisher ( i recommend carbon dioxide or co2 based fire extinguishers for putting out indoor lithium battery electrical fires) and put it in your room or anywhere nearby where u are charging a lithium battery within easy reach.

I think CO2 extinguishers are not allowed here anymore. Only dry chemical.
We have one, but it's down in the garage. And it's empty.

Still, I'd rather think how to prevent a fire from starting than think how to extinguish it. Most houses here in the US are made of wood, so it doesn't take much to get them going. If one of these batteries starts burning, I'm sure there won't be much I can do to prevent the fire from spreading and burning down the house.

Also, I'm not home all of the time, so a fire extinguisher won't do me much good if I am not home to use it. Again, I'm not saying it's bad idea to get one, but my focus is whether I should or shouldn't keep these batteries anymore.

also do NOT put lithium batteries to charge in an area of the house near doorways or along the common corridor(s).

Other than these two lithium batteries, I don't have any other larger packs. Probably only a few cell phones in my houses, two MP3 players, and a camcoder battery pack. I'm thinking about getting rid of the batteries in the latter three. Ever since I saw some cheap Chinese Lithium cells bulge on me, I no longer keep Lithium batteries that I don't need. Call me paranoid, but I just don't like them.
On the other hand, I have plenty of old Ni-CD and Ni-MH packs and cells. But those are pretty safe to keep.

Me and my friend were destroying an old LG Optimus Dynamic II and we kinda forgot to remove the battery. Turns out that the battery caught fire. The fire extinguisher saved out tails.

That's a good way to waste money. Could have sold it or given it to someone in need. :\

[stj]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

i dont think one will just "short", it's more likely a slowly decreasing resistance.
so it should safely discharge in storage.

[TechGeek]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

Seems like so.
*snip*

^^^Regarding battery fires: Me and my friend were destroying an old LG Optimus Dynamic II and we kinda forgot to remove the battery. Turns out that the battery caught fire. The fire extinguisher saved out tails.

That's a good way to waste money. Could have sold it or given it to someone in need. :\

It was slow, and I mean SLOW. It lagged harder than Fallout 4 on an INTEL PENTIUM 1!! It ran Android 2.xx, it took poor quality photos in like, 5 seconds. Again, SLOW. It had a touch-capacitive display, and overall, not good. Have I said enough!?

[ChaosLegionnaire]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

hmm i just want to point out that laptop batteries actually have a lower energy density than drone batteries. that house in singapore burned down due to high energy drone batteries not laptop batteries. so we need to bear that in mind to avoid being a freakasaurus unnecessarily.

i've not heard of any cases of lithium batteries self-combusting while sitting unused in storage so i cant comment or help u with that. all i can say is to maybe get one of those fireproof lithium battery pouches to store them unused or clear an area in your house/room with sandbags to store the lithium batteries. if the battery fails catastrophically, the sand or fireproof pouch will mitigate the combustion and fire. maybe even buy enuff time for someone (neighbors?) to raise the alarm and for the firemen to get there.

another thing is to not afk charge any lithium batteries while u're out of the house. lithium batteries only take a few hrs to charge unless its a brand new cell, so there's no reason to leave a lithium battery charging overnight or while out of the house. unattended charging was one of the factors that torched the house in singapore. so remember if leaving the house or going to bed, turn off the lithium battery chargers! turn it back on when u're back or awake.

also, a dry chemical extinguisher also works for electrical fires but it leaves behind a powdery mess in your room/house after being discharged. a co2 extinguisher leaves nothing behind so it keeps things clean after a fire and less work to do cleaning up the house thereafter. additionally, since u now have a medical history of breathing problems with particles that were lodged in your lungs. if u use a powder extinguisher, avoid inhaling the powdery discharge. dry powder extinguishers use some kind of baking soda or the like as the "active ingredient".

its a pity they banned co2 extinguishers in your place. i quite like them. im guessing its banned because if a fire got to the co2 extinguisher, it would explode because it contains gas under pressure even though co2 is non-flammable. ah, what a pity...

[stj]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

all extinguishers contain a gas bottle or are pressurised.

i used to re-use water extinguishers, if you unscrew the top, there is a big gas bottle under it like from a soda-stream.
when you press the lever it bursts the seal on the bottle pressing the water out.
any extinguisher can explode or do bad things in a fire.

on the plus side, if a co2 bottle explodes, it will blanket the fire instantly.
it should have a pressure-release on the top fitting anyway - so you wont get bits of steel flying around!

oh yes, stay away from Halon.

[stj]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

here is a comment for people in wooden houses,
run plastic air-line around your house, plug one end and put the other end on a co2 bottle with a pressure regulator.
if you get a fire, it should melt the hose and cause the bottle to put the fire out.

i'v seen this done on a smaller scale above the engine of some military equipment.
i think it's also done on some rally cars.

[momaka]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

so we need to bear that in mind to avoid being a freakasaurus unnecessarily.

I know, I know. Seems like I've been panicking about all kinds of crap lately, haven't I?

Well, truth is, I had about 20 cheap, no-name Li-Ion battery packs here several years ago. They came with a bunch of laptops that I got when I volunteered work in the IT department of a local non-profit. These battery packs were all dead, except for the two genuine Dell ones that I still have. The only reason I kept them is because I wanted to remove the batteries and keep the cases or maybe even rebuild a few packs.

Anyways, long story a bit shorter, I never got to doing that. Thus, I had them sitting in a drawer of my desk for roughly 2 years. Then one summer, I heard this crackling noise. It was coming from that same drawer where the batteries were. When I opened it, about half of them had started to bulge badly . A few even had cracked the plastic case open .

Thus, I immediately went downstairs, took a box, dumped the batteries in it, and out they went in the back yard. Luckly, there was a e-cycling even that week, so I went there and dropped off the batteries.

Since then, I no longer keep dead Li-Ion batteries. If it doesn't hold a charge, it's outta here.

By the way, here are some pictures of these cheapo batteries:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1456534371
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1456534371

The open pack you see above in the second picture is the one that had cracked its case open. The gray spots on the battery are actually leaked electrolyte. Some of the other batteries look like they had heated up a bit due to the cases being a bit faded.

Sorry for the crappy picture quality. These were taken with my cell phone, since I didn't have any intention to take these batteries inside again to take any pictures (and my camera I use only with a power adapter due to being too demanding on batteries).

all i can say is to maybe get one of those fireproof lithium battery pouches to store them unused or clear an area in your house/room with sandbags to store the lithium batteries.

Yes, I was thinking something along those lines yesterday too.

Found a thin metal box in the garage. Most likely it came from some gift chocolates or similar - probably not the best thing to use, but still better than nothing. It's also only big enough for one of the batteries... but again, better than nothing . I'll put it on top of my speakers, since there isn't anything around them that will easily catch fire. Will go to the store maybe in the next few days when I get a little better (don't want to get people sick) and try to buy a bigger metal box. Then I'll make dividers in it from some galvanized steel sheet (I have a huge roll in the garage that I found on trash day many years ago ).

So yeah, I think that will do them for now. Comments?

another thing is to not afk charge any lithium batteries while u're out of the house. lithium batteries only take a few hrs to charge unless its a brand new cell, so there's no reason to leave a lithium battery charging overnight or while out of the house.

Yes, I never do, especially these old ones. I usually charge them on a non-flammable surface (such as the granite counter in the kitchen or glass table in the dining room).

also, a dry chemical extinguisher also works for electrical fires but it leaves behind a powdery mess in your room/house after being discharged. a co2 extinguisher leaves nothing behind so it keeps things clean after a fire and less work to do cleaning up the house thereafter.

Personally I don't mind CO2 extinguishers either. It's just that they are not readily available. Perhaps some specialized places around here might sell them. But Home Depot and Lowe's don't, IIRC.

dry powder extinguishers use some kind of baking soda or the like as the "active ingredient".

According to Wikipedia, it's monoammonium phosphate and ammonium sulfate (with the first being the active ingredient)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_dry_chemical

That said, you can use baking power / baking soda and sand as well. In fact, for cooking fires that involve oil catching on fire, I've read that it is best to use baking soda or sand. Water is obviously NOT a good idea.

its a pity they banned co2 extinguishers in your place. i quite like them. im guessing its banned because if a fire got to the co2 extinguisher, it would explode because it contains gas under pressure even though co2 is non-flammable. ah, what a pity...

Well, I'm doing some reasearch now, and it turns out CO2 is not banned, actually. Only Halon is, due to being damaging to the Ozone layer.

That said, there was a posting on the local Craigslist here about 2 months ago where some office complex was giving away its old fire extinguishers - many of them being CO2. The person who made the post said they were condemned, though (i.e. should not be reused). I thought about replying, but the minimum was to take 10 or 20 extinguishers, so I didn't.

here is a comment for people in wooden houses,
run plastic air-line around your house, plug one end and put the other end on a co2 bottle with a pressure regulator.

I have something more simple in mind: just put a bucket of sand on every floor. Cheaper than buying fire extinguishers and works fairly well.

[stj]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

comercial premesis must not have part-used, past date, or under-pressure extinguishers.
still fine for home though.
just make sure you get one wih a guage on it so you know what's inside.

[dmill89]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

comercial premesis must not have part-used, past date, or under-pressure extinguishers.
still fine for home though.
just make sure you get one wih a guage on it so you know what's inside.

^This, for commercial use (any place regulated by OSHA) and rental properties (in most states) there are specific schedules for maintenance, testing, and overhaul/extensive testing of extinguishers. At a certain age (12 years for dry-chem/Halon, and 5 years for C02/wet-chem/foam) extinguishers require complete disassembly and hydrostatic testing to remain certified, which in many cases costs as much or more than the replacement cost, leading commercial and rental properties to replace "perfectly-good" working extinguishers. Most of the commercial-grade extinguishers (Amerex, Badger, etc.) are of very high quality and can last much longer then these prescribed intervals (some have been known to still hold pressure and function properly after 30+ years) and these "expired" extinguishers are generally fine for use anywhere that doesn't require such strict inspection/replacement intervals (just make sure to check the gauge periodically to ensure it still has pressure).

[momaka]

Re: Old laptop Lithium-Ion batteries – when is it time to get rid of them?

Actually, now I remember the ad. It was a company that specialized in setting up offices, or something like that. And basically, what the post said is that some of the extinguishers were indeed good, but due to regulations, they were not allowed to re-use those old "expired" extinguishers. It popped up several times two months ago or so and then 6 months prior to that. So if I see it again, maybe I'll reply and grab a few.