Badcaps.net Forum
Go Back   Badcaps Forums > Troubleshooting Hardware & Devices and Electronics Theory > Troubleshooting & Designing Networks
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-27-2018, 10:04 PM   #1
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Questions about STP.

Hello,

Need gigabit or higher cat 6 / cat 6a. Just so I'm not making a mistake here, with STP, I can run right over AC electrical lines, copper pipes, etc, and not have to worry about interference?

If so, would this be a good choice?

https://www.neweggbusiness.com/produ...1yu-00sf-00010

It's SolidLink 1000ft CAT6A S/FTP In-Wall Rated (CM) UL Listed 100% Copper Solid 23AWG Conductor 550Mhz Fluke Tested LAN Network Cable Ethernet Wire

From what I've read, I really want to buy a fluke tested one. Maybe ask for the print out of the test, to make sure they just didn't do a continuity test. I guess a lot of CAT 6 is just CAT 5 with a CAT 6 label. I know the ends are where cross-talk mostly occurs and using CAT 6 ends with CAT 5 can get you gigabit speeds. I didn't realize companies actually sold CAT 5 as rebranded CAT 6 though
__________________
-- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 12:20 AM   #2
Curious.George
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,113
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
Need gigabit or higher cat 6 / cat 6a. Just so I'm not making a mistake here, with STP, I can run right over AC electrical lines, copper pipes, etc, and not have to worry about interference?
Read the Code as there are low-voltage constraints. Also, CAT6 is physically harder to run than CAT5 and has shorter segment lengths.

I run CAT5 for all my "long" runs (through the walls, across the house) and CAT6 inside my "data center" (short, "exposed" runs between servers).

(If I need to install a remote switch, then I'll run optical fiber to it)

Keep in mind that each run typically only has to handle the traffic of the single (?) host/device that it services. A good first step is to determine the actual limit of what each of your hosts can push down the wire with NO "processing" overhead. Even my media tank doesn't need to push out more than a few hundred Mb/s -- and that's when serving multiple HD video feeds! (about 30Mbps per HD video stream; 1080p@60fps is 3Gbps of RAW data -- but you'd be foolish to waste network bandwidth just to avoid a CODEC!)
Curious.George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 04:34 AM   #3
diif
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
City & State: Midlands
My Country: England
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Cat5e for gigabit speeds. Easier to lay and terminate than Cat6.
diif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 05:09 AM   #4
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 20,091
Default Re: Questions about STP.

fibre is the way to go for gig or higher.
a fibre ring topology is even better, you can get the cards on ebay from old server strippers.

Last edited by stj; 03-28-2018 at 05:11 AM..
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 01:26 PM   #5
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious.George View Post
Read the Code as there are low-voltage constraints. Also, CAT6 is physically harder to run than CAT5 and has shorter segment lengths.

I run CAT5 for all my "long" runs (through the walls, across the house) and CAT6 inside my "data center" (short, "exposed" runs between servers).

(If I need to install a remote switch, then I'll run optical fiber to it)

Keep in mind that each run typically only has to handle the traffic of the single (?) host/device that it services. A good first step is to determine the actual limit of what each of your hosts can push down the wire with NO "processing" overhead. Even my media tank doesn't need to push out more than a few hundred Mb/s -- and that's when serving multiple HD video feeds! (about 30Mbps per HD video stream; 1080p@60fps is 3Gbps of RAW data -- but you'd be foolish to waste network bandwidth just to avoid a CODEC!)
This is CAT6A, not 6, which I believe is good up to 10Gbps, isn't it?

What do you mean read the Code? The NEC? I know that STP is harder to run, because of the shielding and we're restricted to how tight of bends we can use, etc. Do you mean with the shorter segments, we cannot run 100 meters? Research suggests I should be able to run cat 6 / 6A just as far....
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 01:30 PM   #6
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
fibre is the way to go for gig or higher.
a fibre ring topology is even better, you can get the cards on ebay from old server strippers.
I do appreciate the advice guys, but we want CAT 6A or CAT 6. I just need to know if I can safely run it over electrical wires, copper pipes, etc without any worries. When I had asked for CAT 5e, people suggested I avoid certain types, and recommended others.

Is the type I picked a good one?

I thought of the fibre, along side the CAT 5e, CAT 6 / CAT 6A, and the coax, but I don't know anything about it. We have fiber in the area now, but man, that'd be a bitch. None of our devices have any fibre interfaces, so we'd have to buy one for the laptop when we're doing backups, to the desktop, which is always hardwired, to the various servers (which could be a good idea), but they have gigabit ethernet ports. The workstations, etc....

Might use fibre as a backbone though from the switch to the gateway, when we finally get around to buying a good gateway and get the fibre company to call us the fuck back.
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 07:49 PM   #7
Curious.George
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,113
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
This is CAT6A, not 6, which I believe is good up to 10Gbps, isn't it?
CAT6 will support 10Gb -- but only for 50m segment lengths (6a will do 100m). Note that all of these are "paper" specs; YMMV (and likely WILL!)

Quote:
What do you mean read the Code? The NEC?
Just because it's low voltage wiring doesn't mean it isn't covered by the Code! Note that there are lots of stakeholders with a say in the Code's rules (e.g., firemen who may have to enter your building to fight a fire that is unrelated to anything "wire-related" -- yet don't want to become entangled in a ratsnest of cable that isn't properly secured to the building structure!)

Quote:
I know that STP is harder to run, because of the shielding and we're restricted to how tight of bends we can use, etc. Do you mean with the shorter segments, we cannot run 100 meters? Research suggests I should be able to run cat 6 / 6A just as far....
It's harder to run (stiffer, less forgiving of kinks, bends, etc.), harder to terminate properly, more expensive, etc.. And, "paper" specifications represent what a "pro" would achieve (and a pro would MAINTAIN)

You really have to think hard about how you plan on using each pipe. Can the devices on each end (and in the middle!) support the peak and average data rates that you plan on using? Does it really matter if that 1GB file transfers in 10 seconds or 100? Esp if the devices on each end are typically capable of "walking while chewing gum"? Are you really going to sit and WAIT for each "transaction" to complete before beginning the next? (and, if not, then why not just queue all of the transactions and move on to something else??)

I ran ~5000 ft of CAT5e, here. It was tedious navigating existing building structures, wiring, plumbing, etc. (no basement, no attic). Had I decided to use CAT6, instead, I would have hired a "pro" to do it (and certify the results). Or, built a new house!!

By contrast, the boxes that truly need fat pipes, here, are located within feet of each other and the interconnect wiring is unconstrained by walls or pipes as it's "outside" those things. If I bodge a CAT6 cable, I can inspect its entire length (without tearing open any walls!) and replace the whole thing, economically (not true of the CAT5 drops through the walls).
Curious.George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 07:56 PM   #8
Curious.George
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,113
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
I thought of the fibre, along side the CAT 5e, CAT 6 / CAT 6A, and the coax, but I don't know anything about it. We have fiber in the area now, but man, that'd be a bitch. None of our devices have any fibre interfaces, so we'd have to buy one for the laptop when we're doing backups, to the desktop, which is always hardwired, to the various servers (which could be a good idea), but they have gigabit ethernet ports. The workstations, etc....
You typically run fiber between switches and/or switches and fat servers. So, the switch gives you the conventional copper ports for the devices on "that" end. (i.e., plug your laptop into a switch and let the switch act as a data concentrator with the desirable side-effect of converting the copper interfaces to fiber)

[If I were to use my blade server in the manner it was originally intended (as a big multiprocessor workhorse), I would connect to it over a set of three or four 10G links. But, as I use it as a self-contained compute center, most of the I/Fs are inward facing so the various blades can chat with each other instead of with the outside world)]

Fiber is also a big win for out-buildings where there can be a significant difference in ground potential (think: nearby lightning strike).
Curious.George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 08:14 PM   #9
diif
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
City & State: Midlands
My Country: England
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Switching to Cat6/A from Cat5e incurs a lot of extra time and cost for what amounts to very little gain IMO on the desktop level, maybe if you're a 3D artist for Dreamworks but other than that I can't think of much usage.
Want and need are different things. What are you intending on doing that you think requires 10Gbs ?
diif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 08:26 PM   #10
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diif View Post
Switching to Cat6/A from Cat5e incurs a lot of extra time and cost for what amounts to very little gain IMO on the desktop level, maybe if you're a 3D artist for Dreamworks but other than that I can't think of much usage.
Want and need are different things. What are you intending on doing that you think requires 10Gbs ?
I don't require 10Gbs, I require STP. We aren't replacing any wires, except for two, that are CAT6 UTP. Why are we replacing them? Because they're running over electrical wires in the wall and we're getting very crappy bandwidth, connection drops, etc. Why? Because the electrical impulses on the AC wires are being picked up by the UTP and our devices think 0's are 1.

It doesn't matter if it's 6 or 6A. I'd rather go for 6A, just to kind of future proof a bit, in case the need arises where we want to put a server upstairs, instead of the basement. We'd already have a 10Gb backbone we could use.

Regardless, I just want to purchase some CAT 6 / 6A STP wiring and want to know if this is a good brand before I spend the money.
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 08:31 PM   #11
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

We don't want 5e, we already have 5e. We want professional grade CAT 6/6A, but the biggest thing, STP. That's about it, just a recommendation on what CAT 6 / 6A to purchase.

I realize CAT 6A STP need special connectors, and it's harder to terminate, and all of that. I understand we need to follow the NEC. When I asked what code you were referring to Curious.George, you never said, so I take it, from your response, you're referring to the NEC.

I just want to know if the CAT 6A I picked out is garbage, or if you guys think it's a good brand. The 5e we have is junk. But you get what you pay for I guess. This is why I asked, I don't want more junk, want something nice. Spend a little more money, get something that we should have used in the first place. The unshielded is the problem. It might be fine for telephone, but in this house, it is NOT an option!!!! They ran wires like a freaking mad-man. So there's no way to avoid crossing them. I don't want to take walls down to add conduit, when I can just purchase STP. And we really want 6 or 6A, not more 5e.
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 08:49 PM   #12
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,841
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Spork,

Might I humbly suggest buying one single cable length runs worth, mount it in the same fashion from one end to the other over the noisy electrical wires as the current cat 5 cables, set up a temporary ad hoc network connection between two computers on each side, and test the results for yourself.

While you may not have gotten the specific answer you were looking for, the advice posted here lends to the convergent truth that there's no actual way of knowing without testing it yourself and the specifications aren't always accurate.
__________________
...Their plight, in fact is even worse, they don't realize that they're cantonists, they think they're free men. What a slavery that is - to confuse slavery for light, and bitter darkness for bright light.
-Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 09:54 PM   #13
Curious.George
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,113
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
I don't require 10Gbs, I require STP. We aren't replacing any wires, except for two, that are CAT6 UTP. Why are we replacing them? Because they're running over electrical wires in the wall and we're getting very crappy bandwidth, connection drops, etc. Why? Because the electrical impulses on the AC wires are being picked up by the UTP and our devices think 0's are 1.
Was the installation "to Code"? I.e., are there 50mm of separation between the CAT5 cables and the "power lines" EVERYWHERE ALONG ITS LENGTH?

Why don't you just slip a braid over the existing wire and earth it (after ensuring proper spacing is met)?

Or, figure out what the source of the noise is and address that issue.
Curious.George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 10:20 PM   #14
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
Spork,

Might I humbly suggest buying one single cable length runs worth, mount it in the same fashion from one end to the other over the noisy electrical wires as the current cat 5 cables, set up a temporary ad hoc network connection between two computers on each side, and test the results for yourself.

While you may not have gotten the specific answer you were looking for, the advice posted here lends to the convergent truth that there's no actual way of knowing without testing it yourself and the specifications aren't always accurate.
For the STP CAT6 stuff?

I've never played with STP, and I know it can be a mess, but I thought the whole purpose was so it could be ran over noisey stuff in houses / businesses.
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 10:21 PM   #15
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious.George View Post
Was the installation "to Code"? I.e., are there 50mm of separation between the CAT5 cables and the "power lines" EVERYWHERE ALONG ITS LENGTH?

Why don't you just slip a braid over the existing wire and earth it (after ensuring proper spacing is met)?

Or, figure out what the source of the noise is and address that issue.
Because walls will have to come down, and that's something we don't want to do. I'd rather pay 250$, and just do it proper like, using shielded ethernet. I mean, if shielded ethernet wasn't meant for this exact purpose, what is the purpose of it?

I mean, what makes more sense to you? Buying regular cat 6, slipping braid over all of it, and then running it behind walls, over AC power lines, etc, or just purchasing STP and running it normally? To me, STP is the answer here.

Last edited by Spork Schivago; 03-28-2018 at 10:36 PM..
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 03:19 AM   #16
diif
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
City & State: Midlands
My Country: England
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,714
Default Re: Questions about STP.

SFTP is better than STP. Comes in Cat5e and Cat6/A flavours.
diif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 07:56 AM   #17
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,841
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
I mean, if shielded ethernet wasn't meant for this exact purpose, what is the purpose of it?
It's supposed to give a better result, but keep in mind people with mission critical applications with deep pockets pay tens of thousands of dollars to a consultant to tell them to run their fancy CAT6A in metal conduits.
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 01:16 PM   #18
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diif View Post
SFTP is better than STP. Comes in Cat5e and Cat6/A flavours.
What is this SFTP? I will check that. But will it allow us to run over multiple AC lines or run parallel to AC lines, without issues Diif?
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 01:18 PM   #19
Spork Schivago
Your Awesomeness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
City & State: Corning, New York
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 4,517
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
It's supposed to give a better result, but keep in mind people with mission critical applications with deep pockets pay tens of thousands of dollars to a consultant to tell them to run their fancy CAT6A in metal conduits.
Yeah, I know. Conduit is something I want to do, but we can't, without adding a shit ton of extra work Mockingbird. The AC lines should have been ran in conduit to begin with.

But my wife don't want me taking down anymore walls and I cut a whole from stud to stud (half way) and ran some ethernet. Reattached the drywall. I'm not good at the mud and tape part. Gonna have my friend fix it, but she's still upset about that.

So....that's why I'm looking at the STP / SFTP, to see if we can blindly run it behind walls / through the ceiling without worrying about the AC Romex lines.
Spork Schivago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 01:21 PM   #20
Curious.George
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,113
Default Re: Questions about STP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork Schivago View Post
I mean, what makes more sense to you? Buying regular cat 6, slipping braid over all of it, and then running it behind walls, over AC power lines, etc, or just purchasing STP and running it normally? To me, STP is the answer here.
What makes sense to me is doing it right. OR, living with the consequences of a half-assed implementation. Take your pick. STP isn't a panacea.

Hint: ethernet is used in industrial applications every day -- with multihorsepower motors, electric welders, etc. But, then again, those folks "do it right" (not "on the cheap")
Curious.George is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Badcaps.net Technical Forums 2003 - 2019
Powered by vBulletin ®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:21 PM.
Did you find this forum helpful?