Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

[370forlife]

Apple is now doing what it does best to counter windows 7's release. Throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks with it's "I'm a Mac" ads.

They are saying that when users look at the super-ultra-mega complicated instructions to upgrade from XP to Win7, they will break down, cry, scream, set fire to the streets, and buy a mac instead.

Instead of dragging their documents to a external hard drive/cd/dvd, popping in the win7 cd and installing, they will spend thousands of dollars for a mac that is probably the same or worse hardware, and have a small chance of all their programs working with mac. Not to mention not being familiar with the operating system and it's programs and settings, and then logging into their guest account and having all their documents disappear.

Hmm.....

[dood]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

I love Windows 7, and the installation process couldn't have been easier. I've installed it on a total of 5 machines so far, and only one has had a missing driver after Windows Update. The Dell Latitude d610 sound driver was missing. I installed the Windows XP/Vista one and all was well.

I've got it running on both my work systems, an Optiplex 320 and a Latitude D620, and it runs great on both.... much better than Vista ever did. Keep in mind neither of these are top of the line machines... rather, they're both at least 3 years old. The 320 is a P4 3.2ghz w/ 3.5gb RAM, and the Latitude is a C2Duo 2.0ghz with 2 gb RAM. The latitude scores a 3.4 in the Windows Experience Index, and the Optiplex scores a 2.0. The optiplex is limited by its onboard video in the Aero test, and the latitude is limited by the onboard video in the gaming graphics test. (Latitude has a Nvidia quadro nvs110m, optiplex is a Radeon x300 express, I think)

[ratdude747]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

i say they both suck. both are too expensive. ubuntu is free and the new 9.10 (to be a stable release at the end of the month) is freakin sweet! faster too...

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

They gonna do a Mythbuntu 9.10 or a LTS version?

[weirdlookinguy]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

+1 for Windows 7.

It kicks ass.

[Topcat]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

I also like win7, but I'm finding a lot of small things about it that are really pissing me off.

1) diablo2 won't work. installs, but come time to play, it bitches and spits errors out about the CD. dick around with the error for a few, and it'll finally run.

2) Starcraft menu screens are all hosed, game runs, but the menus look like they're in 16 colors.

3) bitched and whined about my old ass version of office (office 2k)

4) won't install if the boot device controller driver isn't MS digitally signed. in my case it was a silicon image sata raid controller. win7 didn't have an embedded driver, the vista driver didn't work, and their published win7 driver didn't work. I finally tricked it somehow into using an xp 32 bit driver (how I dont know, it just accepted it after fumbling with it a while), then win update had a newer driver upon install completion.

4) it hates my A/V software and will not run it at all. symantec corporate 10 (32 and 64 bit edition)

5) nero burning ROM works, but win bitches and whines about it

6) still hogs too much RAM. OS uses about 1.2gb, task manager says system has 'cached' an additional 3gb, leaving 1.5 or so available for apps (system has 6gb)

7) my MP3 ripping software won't run on it at all. In fairness, XP wont either after SP3, some digital right crap kills it off, so I do all my ripping from an XP SP2 system I have here.

8) power DVD doesn't run

Theres more, but thats all I can think of at 3am. do I like win7? yes. Do I like it enough to dump XP Pro on my main system and use it? hell no.

[washu]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

Hey Topcat, most of your issues are because of apps doing stupid things, not because of 7. XP let lots of things slide, but 7 doesn't.

1. I'm surprised you got diablo2 running at all. It's a DRM problem, but it's the game's DRM, not MS. Lots of games install DRM drivers and those simply cannot work on 64 bit. It's got nothing to do with 7 or even MS, same thing would happen on any OS that went 64 bit. Best bet is a no-CD crack.

2. Try using one of the video compatibility options and/or lower your screen resolution before running Starcraft.

3. This is MS's fault for not making Office 2k run properly as a limited user.

4. Silicon image has never been good with drivers, can't really blame this one on MS.

4. (again) I'd say Windows is doing you a favor blocking anything from Symantec, but that's just me. The real issue is that most AV programs install kernel hooks. If they aren't doing it right then it would crash the OS hard. Windows 7 is doing the right thing by preventing something it knows will not work from installing. You need a newer AV program.

5. Try installing the burnrights program from nero and make sure your user is configured in it.

6. RAM use is not as bad as you think. It looks like a lot, but in reality you have way more than 1.5 G free for apps. Windows will dump cache and superfetch memory for apps when they need it. All OSes do this and Windows is actually much better than OSX or Linux (without tuning) at dumping cache when needed. When your apps don't need the RAM, Windows (along with all other OSes) use it for cache to speed up disk access. High RAM use is a good thing even though it seems like it's not. If you are really concerned turn off superfetch, but your system will be slower unless you have an SSD.

7. I can tell you with nearly 100% certainty that your MP3 ripper breaking has nothing to do with MS's DRM. It might have to do with it's own crappy DRM, but it's not MS's. If MS was really breaking apps due to DRM issues, famous stuff like DVDdecryptor would have died along time ago, but it sill works fine. There has never been one single credible report of MS breaking an app for DRM issues. There is lots of good, free MP3 rippers out there that work fine on 7. I can recommend some if you like.

8. Probably an issue with PowerDVD's own DRM, same as diablo2's. Get a new version or just use Mediaplayer classic or VLC.

I dumped XP from every system that could run 7 even back in the RC days, it's that good.

[dood]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

TC- It sounds like pretty much all of your issues are due to outdated software.

Oh, and the memory usage is because Win 7 will basically take everything you give it. It runs just as fast on my system with 2 gb as it does on my system with 3.5. Like washu said... it'll give it back if another program requests it.

[Topcat]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

Thanks for all the info, but I'm not dumping everything I use my computer for (regardless of who's fault the issue is) just to run the newest MS blunder. Maybe I'm jaded by vista, but things like this are retarded. Besides DX10, what will 7 do that XP won't?! Nothing I can think of. My computer is used for emailing, web browsing, older games (D2, SC, AoE), and web coding. All the coding is done in notepad, and once in a while frontpage. Neither of those are things I need 7 for. I'm not going to look for hacks and cracks to make a game work on 7, when it runs flawlessly on XP.

yes it is MS's fault office 2k won't work on 7. I don't want to pay for anything newer like they want me to. office2k does all I need.

yup, I run a lot of old software......mainly the games. If I have to give up the games (or hack/crack them) for 7,it won't ever be used on anything mainstream of mine. Just like vista. Vista was a huge turd, and 7 is looking like a gold plated polished vista... I don't know whether it's the 64 bit goodness killing the games, D2 and SC both run beautiful on XP X64.

In all fairness to 7 though, I never transition my personal systems to a new OS until after the first service pack is released, as so many of these little quirks are cured with the first service pack. Vista was the only exception to this, as SP1 only made it worse. win95/98, NT4, Win2k and XP all were flaky as hell until their first service packs, I'm holding out hope that 7 will be the same way. I'm not a big OS junkie, I'm a hardware guy, I use what works for me.....I can care less if I have the latest and greatest, I go with what works.

[dood]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

Hey, if you don't want to use Windows 7, it's not going to bother me one bit. At work, I've been forced to use Vista for the last 2 years. And I can tell you, without a doubt, that Windows 7 is far superior to the garbage that was Vista.

I had a whole bunch of games that I loved playing on Windows 98 that wouldn't run on XP. When you're trying to run a 10 year old piece of software on a modern OS, you can expect some problems. Having to "upgrade" at least to Office XP isn't much to ask, IMO.

[Topcat]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

if the 'upgrade' were free, absolutely. However, its just their way to put the squeeze on you for a few hundred bucks...for the things I use office for (outlook mainly), it's not worth it.

I'm still curious though, besides DX10 support, what will 7 do that XP won't do? I always find the answers I get to that question fascinating. I'd ask it all the time to those who swore by vista....

I have the RTM copy of 7 on my opteron box, which I'm going to wipe and put X64 back on.... I'm going to toss 7 on a Dell SX280 I have here to tinker with. I put it on one of my precision 670's, and it wouldn't activate......I'll see if I run into the same issue on the 280.

[washu]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

I'm still curious though, besides DX10 support, what will 7 do that XP won't do? I always find the answers I get to that question fascinating. I'd ask it all the time to those who swore by vista....

Well, off the top of my head:

I for one actually like the new interface a great deal and find it frustrating to go back to Vista or XP now, but I realize that is just a personal preference. Some of the new small touches are genuinely useful, the keyboard shortcuts for moving apps to different monitors are especially nice. The new start menu is also much faster once you get used to it. Windows 7 also has a big improvement in Aero memory usage and speed over Vista.

Much better 64 bit drivers than XP64. There's a lot more hardware support in 64 bit Vista/7 then XP64. I have yet to have a 64 bit driver issue on 7, can't say that for XP64.

The improvement to UAC is enough that I don't turn it off anymore like on Vista. MS got the balance right in 7.

I find it "feels" snappier than XP for a lot of things. That extra RAM usage for superfetch does actually pay off (and benchmarks confirm it). Proper SSD support is nice if you have one. Windows 7 also has improved video acceleration features, so movies take less CPU then on XP. Both Vista and 7 have much better threading in the OS itself so they scale better with cores then XP.

Built in VHD support is awesome. Being able to multiboot a test OS without partitioning or using a VM is very useful. That's something XP definitely cannot do.

Built in ISO burning is great, for about 95% of CD/DVD burning there is no need for the bloated Nero or other apps anymore.

Hybrid sleep is great for laptops, you can resume quick if the laptop is not sleeping for long, but still save your state like hibernation if you battery gets low.

Transactional file system. You can batch up a set of file operations and the OS will guarantee that either they all work or they all fail, so your file job is never in a half done state.

Previous versions makes automatic snapshots of files so you can recover accidental deletes/overwrites. For "PEBKAC" users this or just having an "oops" moment this is a lifesaver. XP only supports this when connected to 2003 server or above and can't do it on it's local drives. Vista/7 can do this by themselves and unlike OSX don't need a second drive to do it.

Higher colour depth support is useful for photo work if your monitor supports it. Windows 7 can support 10 and 16 bit per channel displays, XP can only go to 8. There is also much better colour management, another bonus for photographers.

The separate Windows Update program came in Vista means you never have to touch IE at all if you don't want to.

Vastly improved touch screen support over XP.

I'm sure there is a lot more, but that's what I can think of now.

[Topcat]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

^
Very good answer, that's what I was looking for. You have given me Win7 hope. I just installed it on a toy SX280 (32 bit version, only has 2gb of RAM), it activated. Not sure why the 64 bit version wouldn't activate on my precision 670. The games not running just irked me, there's no excuse for that, I'm sorry (to whoever is to blame, whether it's Blizzard or MS)... D2 and starcraft, as old as they may be, are still very mainstream games. its not like it's some old, unpopular and obscure game....if that were the case, I could completely understand.

Whats your take on winblows defender?! read a lot of good and bad, so one more opinion is always welcome.

[washu]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

^
Whats your take on winblows defender?! read a lot of good and bad, so one more opinion is always welcome.

My take on defender is that on my machines I turn it off, but anyone who qualifies as a "PEBKAC" and has admin access gets it left on. I find for a realtime scanner it's pretty low impact, but I still don't use any of them myself. If you have a slow laptop drive it makes a big difference turning it off but if you have a fast desktop drive you probably won't notice the hit. That reminds me of one more thing Vista/7 have over XP: Low priority IO. Any virus/spyware scanner that is smart enough can use it to lessen the slowdown to the PC.

As for your games. Starcraft has a bit of an excuse as the "rules" were not so stringent when it came out, but Diablo 2 does not. The guidelines for apps in 2000 were pretty clear that they could not do the crap Diablo 2 and tones of other games do. MS did it themselves with Office2K as you have seen. MS warned app devs for years not to require admin and not require drivers or kernel level hacks. Then once Vista hit MS actually started enforcing the rules. This is 100% the game's fault and 0% MS's fault. MS gave ample time for devs to clean up their acts and gave no one a pass, no matter how popular. They didn't even give their own Office2K a pass. Vista has better security and will only bypass it if the user specifically requests it (see below). If Diablo 2 was written the same way for Linux or OSX it simply would not work at all.

Now the compatibility options in 7 can get around a lot of these problems. As you've seen, Diablo 2 can be made to work. Try using XP compatibly mode and run as Admin. This of course means a bug in D2 can crap all over your PC.

However games that have more stringent DRM cannot be made to work. It's not MS's fault or a matter of popularity, it simply can't be done. It's like asking why your regular car won't run on diesel. There is no way to make 32 bit kernel hacks work on a 64 bit OS. Same restriction applies to Linux or OSX. Short of the game dev releasing a patch the only thing that works is to use a VM.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

Considering that as far as my personal gear goes I just upgraded my first machine ever to use it to XP Pro from W2k, and that XP was released in 2001: I'll probably make the move to Win7 in about 2017.
-
That should be enough time for you people to work out [almost] all the bugs and then I'll just follow the on-line tutorials.
.

[Topcat]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

I have to say, win7 runs silky smooth on this sx280. I was expecting to be kind of vista-ish on such an old system (2.8GHz, 2gb RAM, 73gb raptor)....but its pretty snappy so far.

I think the one thing that annoys me the most is having to set EVERY damn folder I browse to view as a list. There's no setting in folder options anymore to not remember each folder's setting. I'm sure its something I'm overlooking, but its annoying....and not being able to get into the documents and settings folder is also retarded.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

Win 7 sounds okay, I just have zero actual reason to upgrade.
W2k handles absolutely everything I do [or care to do] in Windows just fine.

Only put XP on the wife's machine because it's a new build so I had to go through a fresh install of 'something' anyway, XP is what she's uses at work, and I have several legit copies of XP sitting around collecting dust.

I've been playing with Ubuntu and Centos but I don't think she's quite ready for that leap.
.

.

[washu]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

I have to say, win7 runs silky smooth on this sx280. I was expecting to be kind of vista-ish on such an old system (2.8GHz, 2gb RAM, 73gb raptor)....but its pretty snappy so far.

The slowest PC I've tried 7 on is a 1.5 GHz Via C7 with 1 GB. It wasn't fast, but it ran surprisingly well for what it was. I would run it on my C400, but there are no video drivers for the onboard chip.

I think the one thing that annoys me the most is having to set EVERY damn folder I browse to view as a list. There's no setting in folder options anymore to not remember each folder's setting. I'm sure its something I'm overlooking, but its annoying....and not being able to get into the documents and settings folder is also retarded.

Just setup a folder the way you like and then click "Apply to Folders" to make it the default.

\Documents and Settings has been moved to \Users. Go to \Users now and it's pretty much the same as before. The "Documents and Settings" that you see in explorer is just a redirect link for stupid programs that access it blindly. There are a few more redirect links like that in user folders as some of the other folders go renamed.

[deckart]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

Oh no!,I'm the only one using Mac OSX 10.6.1,err it's great and,and that's it.
I can still play Medal of Honor!,or if I feel adventurous boot into Windows and play real games,don't worry I'm not a Mac fanatic,just the devil you know etc.Had a go beta testing 7,must admit very nice,flew along unlike Vista which was as bloated as the last Mac OS,full of pointless crap and so many KB short cuts you would need an elephant memory and splice a few more fingers to your hand to enact them.

[washu]

Re: Apple-spend thousands instead of upgrading

deckart's post brings up a good point, even with all the problems TC had with his older software on 7, there is almost always at least a workaround if not an outright fix. In OSX your old software is useless.

deckart: How would one legally play the Mac version of Starcraft on your OSX 10.6 machine? You don't even have to run 10.6, run any OS that your hardware supports. Answer is: You can't. The only way to play Starcraft legally on a modern Mac is in Windows with the Windows version.

TC might have had some issues with Starcraft on W7, but it worked. Even if it didn't he could just run it on XP, either directly or in a VM and still be legal. You can't VM/emulate MacOS/OSX without breaking the license and none of the emulators are really up to snuff anyway even if you didn't care about the legalities.

An even better example is Marathon. That was one of the few (if only) excellent Mac games that were not released on Windows. While there is a new version that will allow you to play, it's not 100% the same. The original classic game is dead unless you happen to have a Mac old enough to play it. PC games from that era are still playable on modern machines.