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    In-depth Xbox Questions

    I'll be fixing a lot of Xbox 360's soon. I am in the process of doing an Atari 2600 fix/mod; and it's cake. But the 360 is, for the most part, a crippled semi-modern computer; the tolerances on part selection is a lot tighter. No Nichicon VX's here (even though some 360's have them).

    I've seen a few Xbox 360 questions on here, and they've all pretty much focused on the electrolytic capacitors and polymer capacitors. Those I'm replacing with UCC KY's/LXZ's, some Panny FMs, and some Nichicon Polys. But what of all the tiny little SMD ceramics?

    My main question concerns temperature coefficients.
    I know what it means, but does it make that much of a difference in this application? Is it location specific; can I use cheapo Y5Vs everywhere or use C0Gs closer to the processor and cheap out other places or...?

    Should I just avoid Y5V and worse altogether?

    Or does it care all that much as long as something is there (going by a comment I read earlier about a coupler capacitor falling off not mattering...)?

    Oh, bonus question: Tantalum. Any opinion on using it to replace electrolytics on motherboards, and what should be done if doing so (less capacitance, what to look for, etc)?

    #2
    Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

    Those I'm replacing with UCC KY's/LXZ's
    The 2700uF Rubycon MFZs you will have to replace with Nichicon HZ. That's the only thing available with the same spec.

    Regarding tantalum, I don't think you can get them high enough spec to use in the 360. Also which box are you fixing? Doesn't sound like Xeons.

    Also are you doing a clamp fix? I found the MKI method to be the best. If you want I can send you the PDF. Also the PDF specifies British dimensions. I can tell you the Home Depot P/Ns if you're interested. Will cost less than $5 for each box plus you're only widening the holes as opposed to MKI because the bolts are a bit thinner.
    "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

    -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

    Comment


      #3
      Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

      Glad I didn't order yet, I'll throw some HZs in there. I think I have a couple somewhere around here. Damn they're expensive.
      Is there a list of electrolytics on each board revision? I don't want a stack of expensive capacitors I won't use anytime soon. All of my friends have warranties (lol) and don't want to take the side panel off.

      One of the ones I'm fixing is a Core made in 2005. Old old old. The other is an old Pro, don't know just how old. The Core will probably go for sale when I'm done drilling into it and get it to go stable and keep cool for eight hours straight.

      No clamp fix yet; I want to see what I can do on my own first before ordering Xbox repair-specific stuff. Lapping or just replacing heatsinks with something that is actually to spec, new/better TIM, replacing the rear fan and adding CPU/GPU fans, drilling out a port for an intake fan on the side panel, might do a duct; probably not required due to the CPU/GPU getting their own fans. With all of these new fans, I'd like to get some that take less effort to run. No Vantec Tornado.
      Maybe a duct going to an empty fan port on the side panel from the new CPU/GPU fans. Hmm...

      Oh, that reminds me, know of any upgrades for the fan MOSFETs?
      Last edited by llamaboy; 11-15-2010, 12:21 AM. Reason: Remembered something...

      Comment


        #4
        Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

        I have Xeon Pro from '06. By "Pro" I'm assuming you meant those units that came with the 20GB HDD... You will need to clamp them. Clamping and not reflowing is better than just reflowing. In fact, I didn't reflow at all and I've had mine working great for months now.

        Don't buy out all the HZ stock, leave some for me. Something tells me they're going to get rare very soon as manufacturers move to polymer for low esr applications. Even Panasonic is slowly moving their production to China. Someone at the xbox-scene forums suggested that the entire xenon MB caps are in a VRM circuit, and that you could use polymers everywhere, but that sounds like nonsense to me. If that were the case, MS would have used bumblebees throughout the board and not just near the GPU.

        Yea those sound like interesting mods, but you're wasting your time because if I was someone that wanted to buy a reliable box with manufacturer warranty, I'd just buy a slim for $199 rather than pay you a fortune for your efforts. The slims have the CPU/GPU (They're both in one die now, you know) vented from the top. I also think they fixed the solder cracking. I think they're still using lead-free but someone suggested here that even lead-free solder can be improved by adding copper to it, which I think they've done.
        "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

        -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

        Comment


          #5
          Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

          NOTE: I am going by a list of capacitors I found. If you have a definite list of what is needed for the Xenon board, please say I'm being dumb and need to get X instead.


          Yep, 20 gig, that would be it. I've been thinking; a Home Depot run is needed anyway, and I like the sound of it. Those parts would probably end up being used for something lame if I didn't put them into an Xbox (well, lamer than a 2005 computer. I'm a PC guy). Send that PDF, if you will, and the part numbers. Thank you much.
          My concern is stress on the board. Is there anything for the back of the board to more evenly distribute the stress put out by the clamp? If not, I could probably figure something out and fabricate it. MDF or plastic...hmm. Might be fun.

          Lol I wish I had enough money to buy out the whole HZ stock. Have you tried using polymers in place of the HZs, just to see what happens? Who knows, might not be as picky as imagined. More expensive now, but later...
          Pop goes the GPU! But hey, if there's one laying around to sacrifice, (I only paid $25 shipped for my broken Core) might as well give it a shot, stress-test, and see what happens.

          My efforts won't cost much, I'm going to turn the Core for maybe $100 opening bid ($75 profit is good for me). I'll throw some pretty LEDs in there somewhere, maybe put in a window and make it look pretty. It's sad aesthetics sell better than things that actually matter. Or I'll give it to the wife, so we can both play online, if I do any XBL. I like my pretty PC games and mouse/keyboard.
          Or I'll re-case it and use a PC power supply for it, and use it to experiment on. Endless possibilities!

          Fusion style, huh? Shows how old it is. Have you seen the performance reports of the combined CPU/GPUs coming out? It's good for an HP/Dell/Apple customer, I guess.
          Last edited by llamaboy; 11-15-2010, 02:09 PM.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

            What do you mean? The new combined GPU/CPU are slower? I heard it runs on linux pretty good, being triple core and all. I wouldn't want to have to compile the kernel for that, it would be a nightmare figuring out the drivers.

            PM me your email and I'll send you MKI and part numbers. I'm not going to publicize the Home Depot parts because the last time I went some shmuk with the same ideas as me bought up all the stock and there weren't any refills on hand. I barely made it out there with enough for one box clamping.

            Yes, there is controversy regarding the MKI/III method that it merely reverses the problem (Makes the board flex concave instead of convex or whatever) but this is not true. There is one popular site selling the expensive "deluxe" clamp kit with that retention bracket, but they charge $20 for it. Not necessary in my opinion. MKIII I don't like, but MKI does eliminate the need for the bracket IMO.

            I had this discussion about the capacitors with PCBONEZ I think, he's the one that referred me to HZ. And no, you can't use polymers there, because they don't have those values in polymer. If they did, MS probably would have used them themselves.

            Yea, I also hate FPS with the Xbox controller. It's the most retarded thing I ever seen. My brother-in-law is wreaking out his guts with it on COD and thinks he's such an "expert". I informed him that if I went on those servers with a mouse and keyboard, I would wipe the floor with every single player there.

            To be honest, I would just give it to the wife (Unfortunate as it is that you have one) rather than sell it, because I personally wouldn't be able to tolerate the liability if I sold it. There's no telling how long these clamped boxes will last. Nothing short of a reball with leaded solder is a guarantee.
            "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

            -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

            Comment


              #7
              Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

              Originally posted by mockingbird View Post
              Don't buy out all the HZ stock, leave some for me. Something tells me they're going to get rare very soon as manufacturers move to polymer for low esr applications. Even Panasonic is slowly moving their production to China. Someone at the xbox-scene forums suggested that the entire xenon MB caps are in a VRM circuit, and that you could use polymers everywhere, but that sounds like nonsense to me. If that were the case, MS would have used bumblebees throughout the board and not just near the GPU.
              its called cutting corners... apple could have made the imac g5 mainboards bombproof... if they used poly caps. why not? poly's are expensive compared to lytics... and i imagine microshaft did the same. figured by the time the red ring hits, people would have already moved on... warranty's up, in comes the dough!

              just because they didn't doesn't mean the shouldn't have... it makes sense why HZ may go extint... other than cost, polys win every time compared to ultra low esr lytics. better specs and more durable... win-win.
              sigpic

              (Insert witty quote here)

              Comment


                #8
                Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                No, I disagree in this case. MS had a very high failure rate on 360s, and even had to extend the warranties because of disastrously bolshevik RoHS policies.

                Look at the new slim:

                All polymers. (Yes I see those lytics near the ports. Don't worry, they won't have any stress placed upon them anytime soon)

                They redesigned the circuit so that they could use mostly polymer capacitors. They were able to do this because of the reduction and combination of the GPU/CPU die.

                They certainly didn't want those kind of premature failure rates with the huge losses they take in practically just giving away the consoles.

                Apple is a different story. Firstly Apple never used off-brand capacitors. They always stuck to the Japanese brands, they were just unaware of lousy series. Secondly, Apple has nonexistent control over some of its OEMs. That's why their PSUs use off brand capacitors. My guess is the systems CPUs fail prematurely because of the stress placed upon them by the PSUs.

                Thirdly, Apple knows who buys their products: Yuppies and stupid people. They don't have to have quality hardware, the same morons will kepp returning for their table scraps as a dog returns to its vomit.
                "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                  i would not call the ROHS communist. no relation. the ussr were huge polluters...

                  misguided? yes. it was a failed concept... if they had made an exception on BGA connections, then there might have been hope.

                  now if they ever made a solder that was leadless but worked for BGA... and it was not extremely expensive... then ROHS all the way... lead bad!
                  sigpic

                  (Insert witty quote here)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                    i think lead-free is great. they just need to make it work right. im sure if they try hard enough...but they wont, everything is made like shit these days

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                      if they span the fucking fans it wouldnt have been a problem, but some dumb fuck in marketing wanted it to make the same noise as a snes.

                      reality time, you cant have multiple cores & high end gpu rammed into a shoebox without heavy cooling!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                        imagine if they made a system powered by the atom... no heat issues there... no power either
                        sigpic

                        (Insert witty quote here)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                          Different material have different properties. Saying you don't want lead in your solder is like saying you don't want wheat in your diet. The concept is ridiculous (Anyone who says they are allergic to wheat is a liar). BGA soldering requires a malleable metal, and lead is cheap and effective. There's nothing else as practical.
                          "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                          -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                            Mockingbird, my mother (and supposdly me too but i eat wheat anyway), is very allergic to wheat...

                            Lead-free is a step in the right directin. They just have to make it work BEFORE selling stuff with lead-free solder.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                              Lead free as in paint is a good (because kids may eat the paint chips).

                              Leaded gas was much better for car engines than lead free but they removed the lead to reduce emissions.

                              Lead free electronics is the dumbest feking idea ever, noone is going to chew on a motherboard and the lead serves an important purpose.

                              Next thing you know they will ban lead fishing sinkers because some fish might swallow one and contaminate the lake.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                                um, but people (like me) touch motherboards and video cards, and then eat something, then be like, oops i just forgot to wash my hands lol. and a lifetime of that cant be healthy.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                                  Originally posted by shovenose View Post
                                  um, but people (like me) touch motherboards and video cards, and then eat something, then be like, oops i just forgot to wash my hands lol. and a lifetime of that cant be healthy.
                                  It won't rub off on your hands from touching it on a motherboard. Don't forget most of the solder is tin, with only a little bit of lead in it.
                                  "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                                  -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                                    i think the reason they want lead free solder is they do not want all the lead going into the landfill/incinerator... that WILL get into the air/groundwater... not good. hence why a lot of electronics have the non-trashcan sign on them... they do have lead solder and are unsafe to toss into the landfill. however, nobody ever follows it...

                                    hence why i think leaded BGA's should be legal but illegal to toss as hazardous waste...
                                    sigpic

                                    (Insert witty quote here)

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                                      to mockingbird

                                      since im new the board doesnt allow me to pm you. im interested on the parts list of the mk1 clamp solution. no risk there since i dont live in the mainland US so... i wont empty your resources

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Re: In-depth Xbox Questions

                                        Originally posted by mockingbird View Post
                                        I have Xeon Pro from '06. By "Pro" I'm assuming you meant those units that came with the 20GB HDD... You will need to clamp them. Clamping and not reflowing is better than just reflowing. In fact, I didn't reflow at all and I've had mine working great for months now.

                                        Don't buy out all the HZ stock, leave some for me. Something tells me they're going to get rare very soon as manufacturers move to polymer for low esr applications. Even Panasonic is slowly moving their production to China. Someone at the xbox-scene forums suggested that the entire xenon MB caps are in a VRM circuit, and that you could use polymers everywhere, but that sounds like nonsense to me. If that were the case, MS would have used bumblebees throughout the board and not just near the GPU.

                                        Yea those sound like interesting mods, but you're wasting your time because if I was someone that wanted to buy a reliable box with manufacturer warranty, I'd just buy a slim for $199 rather than pay you a fortune for your efforts. The slims have the CPU/GPU (They're both in one die now, you know) vented from the top. I also think they fixed the solder cracking. I think they're still using lead-free but someone suggested here that even lead-free solder can be improved by adding copper to it, which I think they've done.
                                        How do you feel about Panasonic and others moving to China? I bought some FRs and they are from Malaysia. Is the era of Japanese caps over? HZs are almost impractical anyway with the price of polymer pretty low. They are good for certain things that polymers cant do. I just hope all the big manufacturers don't start screwing us.

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