Manufacturers make bad caps on purpose? Food for thought...

[Topcat]

A friend of mine and I debated this the other night, and it made me think a bit................ Think of the time frame that the 'bad capacitors' live... Usually around a year or so before the motherboard/system becomes unusably flaky. I have some older socket7 and slot1 motherboards that still run today, some approaching 10 years old, never having failed caps or any other problems... This made me think even more...

Intel, AMD, Microsoft, SiS, VIA, Nvidia, Gateway, Dell, HP, and all the other manufacturers out there rely heavily on people upgrading/buying new systems in order to make money. If the systems last too long, they don't sell NEARLY as many. Think about the evolution of the actual technology... CPU's and RAM are so fast now, there's no reason why the 'core' of a system (CPU, RAM, motherboard) shouldn't last most users atleast 4-5 years without an upgrade. When a new CPU comes out for example, the gains are small versus the high costs of the upgrade, and people simply don't upgrade anymore like they used to. To the general emailing and web browsing user, a 500MHz+ system with 256mb of RAM is a very useable and viable system, and they don't really need an upgrade, until something fails, like bad caps... Back in the days of the 486 and the early Pentiums, small upgrades made HUGE improvements, it's not that way anymore... Big expensive upgrades make very little performance imporvements... So they needed new ways to sell hardware, what better way then 'predictable failures' i.e. bad capacitors... They just keep you coming back for more whether you want to or not... I'm not talking about the 'hardcore gaming' crowd, they upgrade and buy just because they think it's cool, and they think if their system is better they get more respect in their little group of other gamers... I also omit the high-end server platform, they do need the power to keep up with the always changing Internet and business world. I'm talking about the 'averge Joe' user, which makes the majority of the computer-using population, and is the largest consumer of PC's... How many computers do you think unknowingly ended up in the trash over something as simple as bad capacitors, while the owner chumped down for a new one!? Far more than I'll ever see in my lifetime...

When a motherboard fails or becomes unstable, the great majority of people that aren't tech savvy, simply go buy a new motherboard or completely upgrade their system without even thinking about it. With the technology we have today, there's absolutely NO EXCUSE for the bad capacitor plague that has doomed PC's these days. Thinking about all that sure made me rethink that this was just as simple as a bad electrolyte formula foul-up from an industrial espionage incident gone wrong... Is it possible that this is a much larger conspiracy between quite a few manufacturers, with the logic of selling more product?? It's been known in the past for AMD and Intel to secretly conspire with eachother on chip releases and technologies. The same is said about ATI and Nvidia about video card releases and GPU technologies. When it leaks out to the public, it gets quickly swept under the rug... So why not this too?! Awfully peculiar...

Sorry for the long read, but I'd like some more input..........

[stretch0069]

Are we going to have to put straps on your tinfoil hat so it doesn't fall off again???? :o :o





I heard some stuff about planned obsolesence a while back. It would make sense. If your product lasted forever, you could only sell so many before everyone had one.

[kc8adu]

it would not surprise me if that is what is going on.
i think it is just companies sourcing parts from the cheapest supplier and praying they last through the (short)warrenty.

[Michael]

Some arguments against a conspiracy theory...

I see some objections against the conspiracy theory from Topcat. Companies like Philips make energy saving lights that last quite precisely 4000 hours. Printer cartridges are designed to print a preconfigured number of pages, not to print as many pages as possible. Even batteries from laptops contain chips limiting the life span… The intentions from Philips are not really bad, since it is better from economical perspective to replace the lights when you get less lumen per watt. The other two cases however are clearly examples of first degree evil. I'm sure that manufacturers from caps have the knowledge to produce caps that will be gone one month beyond the guarantee period, taking in account the up-time of most computers. I would be more concerned if the user manual states that the computer can be used 6000 hours… I do not see how companies like HP, Dell, Compaq, IBM can benefit from motherboards breaking down after some months. My IBM laptop (A31, 512 MB Ram) did cost 3200 euro and it is extremely stable. No need for saving money on components. It's like a German Volkswagen. No comfort but reliable!

Michael

[willawake]

When a motherboard fails or becomes unstable, the great majority of people that aren't tech savvy, simply go buy a new motherboard or completely upgrade their system without even thinking about it.

I was thinking the same thing recently. The capacitor issue is known only to tech savvy people - a relative minority. Therefore the issue is hidden from the general public. Taking it further, what a convenient way to limit the life of a product. In a way obvious only to the minority of customers. A stealth timebomb. Even more convenient for manufacturers (considering motherboards) is that the average user could find himself out of warranty and being convinced to buy a whole new platform (CPU, RAM, new PSU maybe) as the specs have moved on since he bought the PC. Sorry sir, those sockets are obsolete now....

But another factor not mentioned is not only that manufacturers are purposely choosing cheap components but also that there is large shortages in the component markets. The sales were going down a few years ago, now they are up again. This creates a shortage in components as production has been slowed down to compensate for bad sales. So they will take whatever components they can get their hands on. Taiwan probably exceeds Japan anyway in cap production volume. 4 times less price is obviously a factor also.

Competition in the OEM market now is bringing prices of new entry-level PCs down to ridiculous levels. (Dell ruining the industry?) Cutting all the costs just to ship at that magic number. This is another issue - most companies dont seek to make the best product, they make a product to slightly better their competitors product at the same price level. Innovate slowly then everybody will have to upgrade for years.

I am also concerned about the validity of the stolen electrolyte formula story. The issue still goes on. Did they really produce so many caps using that formula that these are still available now? Don't they know how to make a good formula? or like TC says, is it something more SINISTER........

[Topcat]

Dell ruining the industry?? Stretch, care to elaborate on that?????!? They all seem to be in a race to produce the cheapest machine, but what the stupid public doesn't understand is that with cheapness comes extreme low quality (garbage systems). Try explaining that to a toothless redneck that has never owned a PC.

Willawake, you also hit on an interesting point when you mentioned shortages. I had been in contact with Jackcon about a year ago, and they mentioned that quite a few values of their caps were 'unavailable' due to manufacturing demands... I'll look and see if I still have that email, it was interestingly worded and rather strange, especially coming from a manufacturer....

[kc8adu]

otoh maybe they want to limit the hand me downs?
use crap parts and have the box die before it gets handed down to a less critical application like a kids machine.
i have seen the same box passed along 4 times before being retired or rebuilt.
btw a neighbor who didnt know i repair stuff tossed an emachines p4 system over guess what??? bad caps.
they just took their tax refund and bought a new one and tossed the dead one .of course i picked it up from the curb and repaired it.
whats funny is when i sold it next door some of their kids friends spotted it and knew where it came from.
result?
i have 7 boxes here to repair now that folks know i can repair even the possesed evilmachine as the kids called it.this thing was unstable from new due to crap caps.

[Fatal0E]

I dont know if there is a scheme behind it or not, but the board makers dont seem to care to much about it. Still get in boards covered in cheap caps, Abit VA-10 is what I have been building cheap crap systems with, it is covered in Teapo's. My old favorite Asus A7N8X Deluxe, used to be an excellent board, started off with ALL Nichicon caps, later migrated to Rubycon caps around the cpu, and Nichicon everywhere else, just got 10 in and they reduced the Rubycon count around the cpu and have OST caps everywhere else, big disapointment. MSI crap, still covered in Teapo's, currently seeing a flood of K7N2G boards with about 15 blown teapo's each.
Gigabyte is improving, last few shipments of the SiS 748 and KT600 boards have been solid Rubycon and Sanyo, on occasion they will sneak in a couple GSC's though. Got a couple Chaintechs in for variety, G-Luxon everywhere.


Deal with do-it-yourself'ers everyday, in retail. No one has ever asked about the caps, everyone just seems to be brand loyal. People swear by MSI or Asus or Epox, very few ever listen to me when I try to stear them in a good direction, most just buy the cheapest thing on the shelf then come back complaining when the stuff fails.

Good thing is make money every year on the new boards, and now have been fixing the old failed ones left by customers. Seen lots of older IBM's and the like failing with cheap caps around the ram on their boards, pull off the good caps, repair a decent board and sell it used for $40.

[stretch0069]

Dell ruining the industry?? Stretch, care to elaborate on that?????!?

:o

I believe that was Michael that threw that one about. While I am a Michael, that wouldn't be me.

That having been said, one thing that pisses me off about Dell is that when I called Customer Service, I got some lady in Argentina. :evil:

[willawake]

Sorry about my Dell comment :oops: it is just that Dell ads seem to be in every magazine with low prices that make it difficult to convince people to spend more for a comp made with parts. It is just that last few $100 that makes an excellent pc which will work well and last a long time. Kudos to Mr. Dell though for a very successful company. Perhaps I can appease with a long post.

TC : I have checked a lot of component news sites but they continuinally refer to smt cap shortages. Nothing specific about radial lytics. But i have seen some graphs that the global capacitor market in 2000 was almost $20b, in 2001 $ 14b, 2002 $15b, 2003 expected to be $18bill.

Anyway, you can see that the market started to decline in 2001 and was later picking up in 2003. Towards the end of 2003 and now 2004 the market has been increasing a lot. Cap manufacturers are increasing production this year 36% due to big sales of electronics and China which is a huge market now.

Aluminium capacitor makers to ramp up supply 36% 05/Apr/04
http://www.globalsources.com/am/arti...ion=GetArticle

Aluminium electrolytic capacitor output to reach 75bill 19/Jun/03
http://www.globalsources.com/am/arti...ion=GetArticle

Aluminium electrolytic capacitor output on the rise 16/May/03
http://www.globalsources.com/am/arti...ion=GetArticle

Tighter supply, higher tags in the fourth quarter 21/Feb/02
http://www.manufacturing.net/pur/art...e=02%2F21%2F02

Can we assume an oversupply in 2001 as the market declined then in 2002 they werent going to get burned again like in 2001 so supply was tight. The capacitor issue broke news in September 2002 and so Taiwan was losing business to Japan contributing to further oversupply in Taiwan and Japanese supply getting tighter. Then in 2003 there was SARS creating problems in production which needed to be increased as the market was coming up, especially in China.

"In the first quarter of 2003 Japan has been working overtime to produce low ESR polymer-based aluminum capacitors to fill in the vacuum left by the faulty electrolyte problems that surfaced in Taiwan ROC in 2002"
http://www.ttiinc.com/object/ME_Zogbi20030519.html

Taiwan produces around 22.5 billion aluminium electrolytic capacitors a year - 30% of total global unit shipments

as we move toward the end of the second quarter of 2003 it is becoming more apparent that the SARS virus in China is posing major problems for manufacturers in the region

Increased production across the straits in Taiwan is questionable, due to the problem with electrolytes in the ROC in 2002, and its proximity to SARS from the PRC Mainland.

The scientist with the crappy electolyte formula started working in China in 2001 - To give you an idea of the relevance of this data. Whether supply problems affected the choice of mobo manufactuers is not clear.

FatalOE confirms that two of the manufacturers which started using Jap caps after the failure issue news broke namely Abit and Asus are again using crap caps. Very dissapointing. So there is a limit to how responsible the manufacturing can be. Must be a reason for going back to bad manufacturing practices. It doesnt seem like this issue will go away.

Good thing is make money every year on the new boards

that is one reason

[kc8adu]

i just got a late model gigabyte that has all crap caps on it.
looks like g-luxon ost or osi and teapo.
this board belongs to a friend and has been in service 24/7 for only 4 months in a cool clean environment.
saved a few pennies building it with cheap caps.
bet they dont care about the costs of a vital machine in someones business when it dies due to the crap parts they shaved a few cents per board with.
bet gigabyte never sees all the failed boards even in warrenty.
i explained thar rma ing the board would likely get him another with the same problem happening in a few months.
we will recap it for good.
kinda confirms that the board mfrs.dont care.