Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

[chozo4]

This is more of a 'for fun and amusement' topic but with some serious undertones to it. To those whom have built their own amps - have you tried CrapCaps on the feedback, Output Coupling or other areas in the signal path just hear how they affect the sound? What were your experiences with them?

I know there are plenty of audiophiles (amongst other words) that swear on XYZ-Brand/series caps for their tonal qualities but never hear much on anything else [no pun intended]. I myself have heard large differences in sound depending on the caps used on the output coupling so it isn't exactly a placebo effect by any means (I have tin ears as they call it). So it would be interesting to hear others experiences from the completely opposite end of the spectrum compared to boutique capacitors.

Like for example
* Sanyo WG Series 6.3v 3300uf - output coupling resulting in a more bass-biased sound but was muddy with a lower treble.
* OST 6.3v 3300uf - Also on output coupling was clearer sound with a bit more treble.
* Evercon ME Series 6.3v 1500uf - Again, output coupling sounded about right. Clear across the frequencies but slightly more oomph on the midrange.
* Fujiyoo (whatever) TNR Series 16v 220uf - Bootstrap capacitor sounded alright and did the job but the highs weren't as strong. They weren't all too bad at all.

[stj]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

there is a whole thread about this comparing different caps.
ruby yxf's work well for me.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37813

[kc8adu]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

only time i did something similar was to an audiophool friend who swore he could tell the difference in the sound from blackgates and anything else.
i did up his marantz 2275 in blackgates on the left,fc on the right.
months went by and he didnt notice anything.
i finally told him and his response?
i feel like a total fscking idiot now.
i offered to change to whatever and he had me leave it that way.
he uses it to trick others that think like he did.
if the caps you use are not defective i doubt any difference could be heard.

[SteveNielsen]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Interesting. It seem like a lot of audiophiles are very similar to a lot of Macintosh users in attitude and snobbishness.

I'm a musician with a keen ear. I've made a couple of stereo preamps using mismatched caps for coupling with no discernible difference in sound quality.

[stj]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

well i can tell you that low esr caps give better lows.
probably because of the improved current transfer.

[budm]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Just like people that paid lots of money for Cryo treated AC outlets/inlet, fuse and fuse holder and the SPECIAL SAUCE!.
http://www.acmeaudiolabs.com/products.htm
http://www.acmeaudiolabs.com/productinfo.htm
http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/ma6.htm

And do not forget the "Myrtlewood Power Connector Tuning Device for the ultimate power cord"

http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/125/23685

[stj]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

silver plate will tarnish.

i remember in the 80's a company was selling GOLD plated mains plugs and oxygen-free copper mains cables to the same assholes!

[goontron]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

actually, i have noticed the the aluminium wiring in my walls makes for a smoother listening experience by artificially limiting surges on deep bass, it affects the sound much more than caps... /S

[SteveNielsen]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

well i can tell you that low esr caps give better lows.
probably because of the improved current transfer.

In what application?

[budm]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

You need special fuses too:
http://www.revolutionpower.com/hifi-...er-fast-blow-f
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/index_eng.html
http://www.isocleanpower.com/product_24.htm

[ben7]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Well I could see how different series may have different characteristics like different impedance at certain frequencies, or more inductance, more leakage current , etc.... however, I have no idea weather that is noticeable or not.

You could definitely notice if the power supply filter capacitors are going bad, though! :P

-Ben

[stj]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

In what application?

i do a lot of work with arcade equipment,
in simulators like driving games, using low esr caps the low stuff like rumbling sounds really shake the cab's!!!

if the caps are acting as dc blockers then lower esr = higher transfer ratio of the signal.

[momaka]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I was doing my college senior design project on a discrete headphone amplifier, and I found some interesting research while at it.

In particular, there was a study that shows that adding a resistor in series with the headphones (i.e. between the headphones and the amplifier) can cause "tonal coloration" (a fancy way of saying distortion). You can read the full article here:
https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...062aa0c3ac.pdf
Basically, the increase in resistance lowers the Damping Factor of the speaker-amplifier system, and that means the amp will have less control of the speaker cone motion.

So what does all this have to do with the thread? Well, if you have an amp that is capacitor coupled on the output, then YES, using crappy caps can result in audible difference. In particular, if their ESR has raised, you will loose some bass and you speaker may or may not loose control in some other frequencies - hence giving rise to different "sound". Of course, what you are actually hearing is distortion in different forms. So there really aren't any "special" audio caps. You just need good caps that haven't failed, that's all.

Therefore, kc8adu's comment applies:

if the caps you use are not defective i doubt any difference could be heard.

Now, I decided to do my own set of tests. I hooked up my discrete headphone amp (the one that I built) to a single 6-Ohm, 2-way cheap bookshelf speaker (Panasonic SB-PM11, has 4" woofer). As a control variable, I used a 16V, 1500 uF Nichicon HN for the output capacitor coupling. According to my calculations, my headphone amp can pump out about 500-600 mW into 8-Ohm speakers (so probably a bit more than that with 6-Ohm speakers). With the Nichicon HN cap, I could clearly see the woofer cone excursion - about 2-4 mm on a particular test song.

Then I tried the following crappy bulged caps just for kicks:
1x CS 16V 2200 uF (bulged and leaked, out of a Deer PSU)
1x Jamicon TK 10V 2200 uF (bulged and leaked, out of a Bestec PSU)
2x Sacon FZ 6.3V 1500 uF (clearly bulged and popped - out of a eVGA GeForce 7600 GT)
And here is what happened: With both the CS and Jamicon TK caps, the speaker was not as loud, and it was seriously lacking in bass - even though both were 2200 uF caps. But that's all good compared to the two Sacon FZs. With the first Sacon FZ, I could barely... but really *just barely* hear some of the trebble from the song I was playing. And with the second Sacon FZ - nothing at all. I double and tripple-checked my connections, just to make sure it was connected, but that wasn't the problem. The little darned thing was completely open. In fact, it was so open that it didn't mind the fact that my amp's output stage sits at 7.5V (half of my supply voltage) and that Sacon FZ is only a 6.3V cap . I mean, no bulging, no heating, no extra current draw either (I was checking the input current to the amp with every cap, too).

So then I though, "could I be more stupid with this?"
Short answer - YES.
I took one of those bad Sacon FZs and filled it with tap water. Then I put it back in my amp and applied power. The cap spit most of the water right back me (which was expected, of course, so it was no problem). But I guess it must have retained some, because when I put the same song back on, not only did I get sound from speaker, but the volume appeared as good as it was with the Nichicon HN cap.
That means I also revived a Sacon FZ cap!
....

Anyways. With all of the above stupidity, I think I was indeed able to confirm the following: cap ESR can really have an effect on the sound output. Of course, the cap really needs to be way off (bad) to make any audible difference. So agian, I think kc8adu's comment is valid - as long as you have good caps - doesn't matter if they are low ESR or not - the circuit will function the same.

As for the Sacon FZ cap - I think I am going to make a video on this. I'm still laughing about it.

[ben7]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Breaking news! A brand new capacitor series was just released yesterday from Sacon! One user reports using them in his hi-fi audio amplifier. He says the sound just exploded with colors! BAM!
He even resuscitated one that had fallen ill with "capacitor plague", and it sounded like new! Everyone is rejoicing over these very [un-] promising capacitors!

haha, no worries, I didn't consider this an old thread. Nothing wrong with bringing up an old thread, especially if you have some information or questions related to the topic at hand.

I might try running a signal into various capacitors, and measure what sort of frequency response they have... maybe my ears can't pick it up, but an oscilloscope might.

Also, different caps might "sound" different because of inductance. Though, I doubt it is any significant amount, since they already are made to have low inductance at 100kHz, which obviously we can't hear

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Inductance - definitely not. And ESR is not really a factor in the bandwidth our ears can hear. I agree with the above - if the capacitor isn't almost failed, there will be no audible difference. The loss in bass is caused by the loss of capacitance due to the electrolyte drying out.

On the other hand, microphonics is a very real factor and some caps (especially ceramics) are very microphonic. In a high level signal such as the output of an amplifier, it largely does not matter, but if you are building a microphone/instrument preamp or a radio transmitter then it becomes a problem and care must be taken in the choice of capacitors to prevent it.

[ben7]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Inductance - definitely not.

Thanks for killing my curiosity

On the other hand, microphonics is a very real factor and some caps (especially ceramics) are very microphonic. In a high level signal such as the output of an amplifier, it largely does not matter, but if you are building a microphone/instrument preamp or a radio transmitter then it becomes a problem and care must be taken in the choice of capacitors to prevent it.

Yeah. Apparently, polystyrene/film capacitors are the best, are they not?

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Using CrapCaps in audio amps to hear tonal effects?

Yes. Film caps are best but they are expensive and physically large. Polyester caps can be used instead. Same thing tho, they're a type of film cap too.

All the signal circuits i have built have used polyester caps and they always came out sounding good. They also have better temperature coefficients and tolerances compared to ceramics, also they don't age and are not particularly sensitive to humidity or DC bias like ceramics are.