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    Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

    Originally posted by Topcat View Post
    For all the Intel bashers (me included), I just want to remind them all that AMD isn't immune to this either, and isn't the holy grail savior in this mess. Just sayin'. Several of the articles have mentioned that AMD has been less than forthcoming with information for patches, etc. The hypocrisy runs deep.
    I don't like the AMD driver web site and server(s)! (At least for their Windows software!) Makes Intel look like a total angel! LOL!

    First off the AMD driver web site design, reminds me of a web site that's ran by radical Euro (or Australia) (or NZ) fascists...
    Last edited by RJARRRPCGP; 01-13-2018, 09:28 AM.
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      Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

      What the heck are you talking about? Their site is not screwed by some ovelaying menu craps like intels for them mobile craps which I always have to delete away in dragonfly…
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        Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

        The original Xbox chip, made by IBM used speculative execution.

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          Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

          ??
          the original xbox chip was a 700MHz pentium

          Comment


            Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

            Originally posted by stj View Post
            ??
            the original xbox chip was a 700MHz pentium
            Yeah, the 360 is the one I meant. Forgotten, because I was busy PC gaming.
            https://hackaday.com/2018/01/08/spec...-for-xbox-360/

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              Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

              Originally posted by Stefan Payne View Post
              No, its not a fundamental x86 Problem, its a Problem with all CPUs.
              No, it isn't. And, it isn't a natural consequence of speculative execution -- you can design a processor to do speculative execution and still preserve the protections that are being subverted. But, it costs more silicon.

              Security exploits are ALWAYS a matter of economics -- someone, somewhere, doesn't want to "pay" the price of maintaining the security that has been designed into the system (whether it is a piece of hardware, software or human policies).

              People want to be able to get into their homes if they've misplaced their keys so leave a spare "under the mat" -- so they aren't inconvenienced (in that RARE event) or to avoid the cost of calling a locksmith.

              Folks want easy to remember passwords so even if you require a 14 character password (to defy rainbow table cracking), they'll pick from a much smaller subset of the 14 character passwords that are potentially available -- cuz "pDiUoETDK9fwJl" is a lot harder to remember than "my name is bob" (both passwords being 14 characters).

              Software assumes input from the user will fit in the space set aside by the software developer and saves the cost of limiting the data to that space in the name of saving a few instructions per iteration.

              Projecting the access control bits forward through the memory accesses proposed by speculative execution costs more than simply ignoring them and hoping the actual bus cycle that is run is not contrary to their protections. Or, inhibiting the caching of their results (and thus taking the performance hit, there). (some of the fancier ARMs carry this information forward as they speculate)

              It doesn't because speculative excecution is inevetable if you want performance.
              The question that should be asked is why do you need this performance? Why is the software so sluggish and bloated that it needs so many trillions of clock cycles to do "whatever". Even when I'm rendering a 3D CAD model, I don't need that performance -- cuz I can always find something else to do while waiting for the render to finish (and, I can do it on the same computer!)

              Its interesting to drag out old software and run it on newer hardware and see how blazingly fast it is! Then, ask yourself what you've "gained" by running the newer (slower) software on that hardware.

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                Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                Originally posted by stj View Post
                ??
                the original xbox chip was a 700MHz pentium
                P III 733 Mhz. (Probably a Coppermine)
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                "¡Me encanta "Me Encanta o Enlistarlo con Hilary Farr!" -Mí mismo

                "There's nothing more unattractive than a chick smoking a cigarette" -Topcat

                "Today's lesson in pissivity comes in the form of a ziplock baggie full of GPU extension brackets & hardware that for the last ~3 years have been on my bench, always in my way, getting moved around constantly....and yesterday I found myself in need of them....and the bastards are now nowhere to be found! Motherfracker!!" -Topcat

                "did I see a chair fly? I think I did! Time for popcorn!" -ratdude747

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                  Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                  Stupid question perhaps, but I have for some time been planning to deploy linux, will it help with this problem or make no difference since this is a hardware issue.
                  Last edited by llonen; 01-13-2018, 06:29 PM.

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                    Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                    Originally posted by llonen View Post
                    Stupid question perhaps, but I have for some time been planning to deploy linux, will it help with this problem or make no difference since this is a hardware issue.
                    Most linux distros have deployed mitigation against Meltdown using KPTI. The big name distros like Ubuntu, Redhat, Suse, etc all have it patched. Some of the smaller, less frequently updated distros may not have KPTI.

                    Spectre is a much longer process to fix.
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                      Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                      I didn't see 5400-series Xeons (harpertown) in the master list from Intel....which would also cover yorkfield and those similar (C2Q)....either they're not susceptible or they didn't go back that far....but LGA771 was the predecessor to LGA1366 (nehalem & westmere, 5500 and 5600 series), which is on the naughty list... I figured they would go back that far, there still a lot of these in operation.
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                        Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                        Originally posted by llonen View Post
                        Stupid question perhaps, but I have for some time been planning to deploy linux, will it help with this problem or make no difference since this is a hardware issue.
                        The first question you have to ask is how "exposed" the machine in question is to the introduction of "foreign" code (directly or indirectly). An attacker has to get code to execute ON your machine in order to take advantage of any of these exploits.

                        So, does your OS (or any applications) allow for the entry (deliberate or clandestine) of "instructions" (which may or may not be direct machine code) from an external/remote, untrusted source?

                        A machine that doesn't have a network connection is immediately less vulnerable. Likewise, the absence of a (privileged) "console" or other mechanisms for introducing new media to the system (autoplay, executables invoked from shells, etc.)

                        Likewise, an OS that requires signed executables (presumably, the CA vouches for the binaries that it signs) is largely immune as there's an intermediary required to get the code to execute.

                        Your first order of business is thus to nail down any paths into the system that can be leveraged to inject the sort of code that can tickle these particular exploits.

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                          Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                          Originally posted by Topcat View Post
                          That's the age-old argument in the PC world...much like Ford vs Chevy in the car world....or coke vs pepsi....republican vs democrat...its an endless argument that no winner will ever emerge from.
                          I understand that there isn't a clear cut answer, but Intel is really getting on my nerves with the information manipulation. Feels like everything Intel says is a lie now.

                          Comment


                            Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                            Originally posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
                            now intel says the meltdown and spectre patches can cause reboot problems in older chips!

                            Source: Reuters
                            Originally posted by stj View Post
                            says it all, my AMD systems dont reboot - ever.

                            so for the sake of completeness, can intel tell us how often their cpu's reboot normally?
                            Originally posted by hannah View Post
                            I understand that there isn't a clear cut answer, but Intel is really getting on my nerves with the information manipulation. Feels like everything Intel says is a lie now.
                            I agree hannah, the above quote is a nice example.
                            No where does Intel mention BSOD (Blue Screen) in their public communication.
                            But that is exactly what it is:
                            Just because the default in Windows is to restart _after_ a BSOD does not mean the CPU has a restart issue.
                            It has a fucking BSOD issue Intel!
                            "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

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                              Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                              Originally posted by Per Hansson View Post
                              It has a fucking BSOD issue
                              For 99 percent of the time, QFT!
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                              "¡Me encanta "Me Encanta o Enlistarlo con Hilary Farr!" -Mí mismo

                              "There's nothing more unattractive than a chick smoking a cigarette" -Topcat

                              "Today's lesson in pissivity comes in the form of a ziplock baggie full of GPU extension brackets & hardware that for the last ~3 years have been on my bench, always in my way, getting moved around constantly....and yesterday I found myself in need of them....and the bastards are now nowhere to be found! Motherfracker!!" -Topcat

                              "did I see a chair fly? I think I did! Time for popcorn!" -ratdude747

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                                Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                                Possibly off-topic: Some recent windows 7 update keeps making my wife's twin Opteron X2 BSOD. For now she's on my Dual Xeon Westmere rig until I get back from a long company trip. Possibly related to the Intel patch reboot issue?
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                                  Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                                  ^
                                  yay for running unpatched for ages...
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                                    Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                                    Originally posted by ratdude747 View Post
                                    Possibly off-topic: Some recent windows 7 update keeps making my wife's twin Opteron X2 BSOD. For now she's on my Dual Xeon Westmere rig until I get back from a long company trip. Possibly related to the Intel patch reboot issue?
                                    It's probably the known bug that was reported recently!
                                    ASRock B550 PG Velocita

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                                    "¡Me encanta "Me Encanta o Enlistarlo con Hilary Farr!" -Mí mismo

                                    "There's nothing more unattractive than a chick smoking a cigarette" -Topcat

                                    "Today's lesson in pissivity comes in the form of a ziplock baggie full of GPU extension brackets & hardware that for the last ~3 years have been on my bench, always in my way, getting moved around constantly....and yesterday I found myself in need of them....and the bastards are now nowhere to be found! Motherfracker!!" -Topcat

                                    "did I see a chair fly? I think I did! Time for popcorn!" -ratdude747

                                    Comment


                                      Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                                      Originally posted by ratdude747 View Post
                                      Possibly off-topic: Some recent windows 7 update keeps making my wife's twin Opteron X2 BSOD. For now she's on my Dual Xeon Westmere rig until I get back from a long company trip. Possibly related to the Intel patch reboot issue?
                                      read the link i posted earlier in the thread.

                                      Comment


                                        Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                                        Originally posted by ratdude747 View Post
                                        Possibly off-topic: Some recent windows 7 update keeps making my wife's twin Opteron X2 BSOD. For now she's on my Dual Xeon Westmere rig until I get back from a long company trip. Possibly related to the Intel patch reboot issue?
                                        Yep, Intel fucked it up on CPUs that aren't able to run Windows 8.1 or later in 64bit mode.

                                        Maybe its possible to rip out the Harddrive, put it in a modern PC and deinstall the update and block it for now.

                                        Comment


                                          Re: Some serious security bug in INTEL CPUs?? Since Westmere possibly

                                          Want to make note that though it's a little tougher to exploit the Yorkfield due to lack of accurate timing, at least I have experimentally seen that my Q9550S is indeed affected by Spectre. My Sandybridge is by far worse due to accurate timing information.

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