Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

[mattbrad2]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

the DV5 is a nice laptop. They had one in that series that suffered from a bad power management IC but overall the GPU seemed to hold up well. You usually see more of this problem when the GPU is coupled with a terribly inefficient CPU and then they both share the same terribly inefficient heatsink. However, I'm now seeing netbooks with Intel GMA with the same problem. A friend of mine blames it all on adobe flash. You leave one of these websites up all day with flash ads all over it and your poor notebook will cry out for help.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

That's why i have Fanboy's Adblock list. No ads for me thank you.

I've heard random reports of intel chipset failures as well, but they must be a lot less than the nvidias.

[Agent24]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Yeah. solution = block all the stupid flash ads.

Flash is probably more inefficient than the heat-sinks you're talking about.

But Intel's display adapters (I would refuse to call anything that slow a GPU) are horrible.

[shovenose]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Um...
The GPUs in the Sandy Bridge processors are decent - the HD3000 in my Lenovo is not bad at all...

[mattbrad2]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Um...
The GPUs in the Sandy Bridge processors are decent - the HD3000 in my Lenovo is not bad at all...

Sandy Bridge is Intel's first true attempt at a decent GPU. For what its worth - I love my Lenovo, too

[Agent24]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Well that does surprise me a bit - on paper (and in benchmarks) it seems an OK performer. Certainly better than the old Intel ExtremelySlow!

However, benchmarks also put it somewhere between the GeForce 320M and 330M - which came out 2 years ago.

Compare it to the GPUs out this year, and it's not that great actually.

I wonder if Intel will manage to up the driver quality this time too?

[severach]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

It's all a matter of differing expansion rates between the board, the chip materials, and the solder. Good packages like DIP and QFP have pins that take the flex. They last because very little flex is needed. Bad packages like QFN and BGA don't so whatever is least tolerant of flexing breaks first. That's the solder.

Heat cycling is the trigger. If the chip heats up and flexes once, no problem. If it regularly goes between 25*C to 35*C it should last a long time. If it goes between 150*C to 25*C daily then it won't last long.

Many boards have tiny leadless chips with lots of unused real estate around. There's a lot of leadless chips that shouldn't be but even leads don't solve the die problems. Some bonehead specified that BGA chips would last the design life running up to 150*C so the makers attached appropriately sized heat sinks. They don't last at that temperature so all we can do is cool excessively.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

And... here we go again. I was watching a HD video and bang. And this time i can rightfully blame the guy who reballed it as it was the GPU which failed. But nothing can stop a man with a heat gun.

And i thought a little case mod would be in order as well. A little extra fannage. I made it temperature controlled too, so i don't have to put up with that wheeeeee all the time. It starts making its presence felt at 50C, and reaches maximum speed at 60ish. It does whine quite a bit, but it moves some serious air for its size. I have a couple larger ones of the same height, but they are both 12v fans so they'd spin rather slowly at 5v and not do much. I haven't checked the mobo for a 12v or higher source that is present on both charger and battery, maybe i will, and fit one of the larger fans if i find one.

While i was at it, i also added a little something for the RAM chip on the top side that used to be in free air (i had already arranged for its neighbor to get some heatsinking from the top cover when i reflowed it). It isn't a lot, but it's better than nothing.

And yes, i do have to make some sort of grill for that fan, but that's for tomorrow.

PS. A big Fuhjyyu () goes to HP, Quanta and a certain dude who does "professional reballs". I'll never trust a computer service in my country ever again.

[Agent24]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

PS. A big Fuhjyyu () goes to HP, Quanta and a certain dude who does "professional reballs". I'll never trust a computer service in my country ever again.

Do you actually know for certain he did the reball properly, or for that matter, even did a reball at all - and not just waved a hairdryer over it or something?

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

He does own a reball station, i've been there and seen it, and the red epoxy normally present on the sides of the 8400M isn't there, so yes it has been reballed.

[momaka]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

the red epoxy normally present on the sides of the 8400M isn't there, so yes it has been reballed.

That doesn't mean much, though. The place where I work at now we also remove the epoxy on the side of the chip (if it has it), regardless of whether we are reflowing or reballing. If not removed, the reflow is less likely to work (and pulling the chip for a reball is impossible when the epoxy is there).

Sometimes you can see if it has been reballed though - the balls under the chip will look nice and shiny (if leaded older was used). Hope he didn't use lead-free solder .

So the laptop is running again now?

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Running fine right now, and awaiting more mods.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Doesn't really fit in the reballing topic but it's still about the same laptop, so here goes.

I got tired of the dust inside the screen and opened up the panel to clean it. I got rid of the dust alright, but i managed to leave some smudges on one of the polarizers... crap. Also the left hinge is completely gone now.

So i called this guy which i knew had some parts for sale, and sure nuff, he still had the panel, and a 2.3GHz CPU. Unfortunately the CPU didn't work as it was a newer generation, it was a RM while mine is a TL (board didn't even POST), but i ended up dropping $90 on the following:

1x Clean, ass-spankin' LG panel. The backlight is more even than my AUO one, it's a bit harsh but the colors need to be redone anyway. The AUO had a yellowish backlight, this one is cool white. Vertical viewing angles are slightly worse, horizontals are better. But hey, it's CLEAN.
1x Battery, sensors dodgy but so far it appears it will charge fully. This guy was nice enough to wait until the battery charged to 44000mWh (50% capacity, my battery has 50% wear and won't charge more than that), and it reported exactly 50% at that charge, so it looks like it'll hold full capacity.
1x Matsushita DVD-RW with lightscribe, made in 2008. Pulled off some Lenovo.
And 1x 128MB SDRAM for my DOS gaming laptop as a bonus.

All in all, i think it was worth it. Now all i need is a new set of hinges and i'll be set until the end of the world in December.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Well, today i had to hit it again. Just under 4 months... Ah well. Sometime this month, the wired network card went out, just like it happened last year with the other mainboard. If only i knew... i woulda kept that one.

I used momaka's reflow method this time, putting flux on the sides of the chip then preheating the board from the bottom so the flux goes in by itself, and only then heating it from the top. It worked surprisingly well - the chip ate a lot more flux than i thought. I also reflowed the northbridge but still no go on the wired network - so it's not the NB, and not the realtek PHY (replaced that on my old board, no dice)... i have no idea why the network failed but apparently it can't be fixed. I guess i'll buy a cheap USB ethernet card and be done with it.

[ratdude747]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

My buddy had a newer biostsr do that... pci nic time.

[momaka]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

I used momaka's reflow method this time, putting flux on the sides of the chip then preheating the board from the bottom so the flux goes in by itself, and only then heating it from the top. It worked surprisingly well - the chip ate a lot more flux than i thought.

Just be careful not to put too much flux - very easy to do with this method. Not that it would do anything bad but you'll waste a lot of flux because the chip will keep eating it until it saturates all of the empty space under itself. I don't know exactly what causes the flux to get drawn under the hot chip, but it works. Still magic to me.

It's unfortunate that the reflow didn't work, though. Maybe re-ball time? Although I find that if a proper reflow doesn't work, then a re-ball rarely does either.

[ratdude747]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

Just be careful not to put too much flux - very easy to do with this method. Not that it would do anything bad but you'll waste a lot of flux because the chip will keep eating it until it saturates all of the empty space under itself.

Isn't that the idea... to prevent tin whiskers (if it's ROHS), reduce oxidation (in case that was why the original soldering didn't take hold), increase the ahesion of the solder, and to prevent solder bridges?

I don't know exactly what causes the flux to get drawn under the hot chip, but it works. Still magic to me.

Capillary action.

It's unfortunate that the reflow didn't work, though. Maybe re-ball time? Although I find that if a proper reflow doesn't work, then a re-ball rarely does either.

As stated earlier I know someone who had this happen... an old 10/100 card took care of the issue since the death of the NIC is all that happened... not a single issue otherwise.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

It's unfortunate that the reflow didn't work, though. Maybe re-ball time? Although I find that if a proper reflow doesn't work, then a re-ball rarely does either.

With my original board, i've been told that a reball of both the GPU and MCP will cure it. I didn't buy that so i got another board. In hindsight, i should have never exchanged the board, because my 8400M was A LOT more reliable and it also was the 256MB version, which i can't seem to find anywhere (not even ebay).

I think i'm going to buy the intel based motherboard, which has the 8600M, but then i'm also going to need a new cooler, besides a new CPU, as the layout is different.

[Lumberjack777]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

The place where I work at now we also remove the epoxy on the side of the chip (if it has it), regardless of whether we are reflowing or reballing. If not removed, the reflow is less likely to work (and pulling the chip for a reball is impossible when the epoxy is there).

I've been having a heck of a time getting that red epoxy off. I have tried hot air with a small nozzel at 150C. Then attempting to pry it out with a skewer or toothpick. There always seems to be some residue underneath that makes it impossible to pull the chip cleanly. The last one even had red epoxy past the first set of solder balls under the chip.
Is there a method of getting ALL of that epoxy off to make for a clean lift?

[momaka]

Re: Reballing does NOT mean it'll last long!

The last one even had red epoxy past the first set of solder balls under the chip.

Ouch! I guess we haven't been that "lucky" to get one like that. I'm not sure if M.E.K. would help. We used to use it a lot on the Xbox 360s before pre-heating the boards. But those are a piece of cake compared to the small chips in laptops with the red epoxy stuff. Frankly, I haven't done many laptops. Only my friend has - but I think he got most of them working by doing a proper reflow, so a reball was rarely required.