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    #21
    Re: Questions about STP.

    Originally posted by diif View Post
    SFTP is better than STP. Comes in Cat5e and Cat6/A flavours.
    I think SF/FTP is what we'll go with. That should give us plenty of protection in this noise environment without me having to tear the entire house apart. I don't know if this comes in Cat6 or just CAT7. Hoping to find a higher quality brand that has a drain wire to help with the grounding..

    That'd be shielded / foil on the outside of all pairs, and then each pair would have foil. I believe this is made specially for really electrically noise environments, like what we have here.
    -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

    Comment


      #22
      Re: Questions about STP.

      Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
      What makes sense to me is doing it right. OR, living with the consequences of a half-assed implementation. Take your pick. STP isn't a panacea.

      ...Why don't you just slip a braid over the existing wire and earth it (after ensuring proper spacing is met)?...
      Now you're getting it! Slipping a braid over the existing wire would be what you called a half-assed implementation. Doing it right would be either:
      A) Running the Romex through conduit (not an option)
      B) Making sure the ethernet doesn't touch the Romex (not an option)
      C) Running cable that's designed to protect the data on the lines from outside interference / designed to protect the data on the lines from creating interference (this is an option).

      With C), I see fibre, which I don't want to run, and STP / S/FTP / SF/FTP as viable options.

      The NEC for commercial is a lot more stringent then the NEC for residential. For example, the NEC states we can't run Romex in a commercial drop ceiling, but in a home drop ceiling, its fine. If I remember correctly, counties can append rules to the NEC, but cannot change existing ones.

      So, in my area, they might say we could run Romex in a drop ceiling if it's in conduit, but otherwise, no. I don't know if that's a good example there or not....
      -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

      Comment


        #23
        Re: Questions about STP.

        Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
        Now you're getting it! Slipping a braid over the existing wire would be what you called a half-assed implementation. Doing it right would be either:
        A) Running the Romex through conduit (not an option)
        B) Making sure the ethernet doesn't touch the Romex (not an option)
        C) Running cable that's designed to protect the data on the lines from outside interference / designed to protect the data on the lines from creating interference (this is an option).
        D) Identifying the source of the noise and squelching it (which is what FCC requires of "offending radiators")

        E) route the lines so they aren't susceptible to that interference

        F) use a different communication medium

        N.B. "B" is not an "option", it is a REQUIREMENT OF THE CODE (do yourself a favor and actually READ the code before acting as if you can pick and choose what portions of it apply). Hint: the folks who write the Code are WAY smarter than you or I. Ignore their experience at your own peril!

        If your wife doesn't like the idea of you opening up walls/ceilings, then hire a plasterer to do the work for you. If you don't want to spend the money on that, then find another place to site your kit -- including a commercial space. Or, another/better house.

        I incurred the cost of opening walls and ceilings. I relocated all of the devices that needed fat pipes to share a single location so I could purchase COTS cables to interconnect them using EXPOSED wiring. I did these things because they were the RIGHT way to tackle the problem, not the "cheap kludge".

        With C), I see fibre, which I don't want to run, and STP / S/FTP / SF/FTP as viable options.
        Here's the gist of your argument:
        "Folks are telling me all of these RIGHT ways to solve this problem -- but, I don't want to do any of them (for a littany of different reasons -- including simply not WANTING to do them, as above). Instead, I want someone to tell me that what I have already decided to do is right... so I can blissfully pursue that approach and, later, be pissed at someone else if it turns out that it WASN'T right!"

        Did you read (upthread) where I ran ~5000 ft of CAT5 through a home with no basement or attic? Ask yourself how I did that. Think about how BIG of an effort that entails. Should I have just convinced myself that it was "not an option"? (Hint: you can bet your ass that I didn't WANT to do it!) Or, should I have made sure that my time and money were spent "doing it right"?

        You seem to have a silly notion of "value added" -- you'll buy a license for SolidWorks and incur the costs of learning to use it (probably far less optimally than a PROFESSIONAL) for a couple of designs rather than hiring someone who KNOWS what they are doing (I trade favors with my colleagues for skillsets that I don't personally have). Then, you'll try to save a few dollars kludging together a network infrastructure that an IT grad fresh out of school would shudder at!

        You WILL, of course, set up a daemon to continuously monitor your network traffic to MEASURE the error rates you are ACTUALLY seeing and signal an alarm when those rates rise to unacceptable levels (which YOU will determine). Or, perhaps you'll just convince yourself you no longer have a problem, by avoiding any evidence to the contrary... (of course, you've already gathered that evidence to quantify the problem that you have, currently)

        The NEC for commercial is a lot more stringent then the NEC for residential. For example, the NEC states we can't run Romex in a commercial drop ceiling, but in a home drop ceiling, its fine. If I remember correctly, counties can append rules to the NEC, but cannot change existing ones.
        Have you actually read the applicable sections of the code? ALL of them?? (apparently not, from your above statements). Or, are you making your decisions based on your impressions of what the Code should say?

        Hey, it's your mess. Convince yourself of whatever you WANT to do (as all you seem to be doing, here, is looking to justify a foregone conclusion on your part). Then, LIVE WITH IT.

        I'm out.

        Comment


          #24
          Re: Questions about STP.

          Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
          D) Identifying the source of the noise and squelching it (which is what FCC requires of "offending radiators")

          E) route the lines so they aren't susceptible to that interference

          F) use a different communication medium

          N.B. "B" is not an "option", it is a REQUIREMENT OF THE CODE (do yourself a favor and actually READ the code before acting as if you can pick and choose what portions of it apply). Hint: the folks who write the Code are WAY smarter than you or I. Ignore their experience at your own peril!

          If your wife doesn't like the idea of you opening up walls/ceilings, then hire a plasterer to do the work for you. If you don't want to spend the money on that, then find another place to site your kit -- including a commercial space. Or, another/better house.

          I incurred the cost of opening walls and ceilings. I relocated all of the devices that needed fat pipes to share a single location so I could purchase COTS cables to interconnect them using EXPOSED wiring. I did these things because they were the RIGHT way to tackle the problem, not the "cheap kludge".



          Here's the gist of your argument:
          "Folks are telling me all of these RIGHT ways to solve this problem -- but, I don't want to do any of them (for a littany of different reasons -- including simply not WANTING to do them, as above). Instead, I want someone to tell me that what I have already decided to do is right... so I can blissfully pursue that approach and, later, be pissed at someone else if it turns out that it WASN'T right!"

          Did you read (upthread) where I ran ~5000 ft of CAT5 through a home with no basement or attic? Ask yourself how I did that. Think about how BIG of an effort that entails. Should I have just convinced myself that it was "not an option"? (Hint: you can bet your ass that I didn't WANT to do it!) Or, should I have made sure that my time and money were spent "doing it right"?

          You seem to have a silly notion of "value added" -- you'll buy a license for SolidWorks and incur the costs of learning to use it (probably far less optimally than a PROFESSIONAL) for a couple of designs rather than hiring someone who KNOWS what they are doing (I trade favors with my colleagues for skillsets that I don't personally have). Then, you'll try to save a few dollars kludging together a network infrastructure that an IT grad fresh out of school would shudder at!

          You WILL, of course, set up a daemon to continuously monitor your network traffic to MEASURE the error rates you are ACTUALLY seeing and signal an alarm when those rates rise to unacceptable levels (which YOU will determine). Or, perhaps you'll just convince yourself you no longer have a problem, by avoiding any evidence to the contrary... (of course, you've already gathered that evidence to quantify the problem that you have, currently)



          Have you actually read the applicable sections of the code? ALL of them?? (apparently not, from your above statements). Or, are you making your decisions based on your impressions of what the Code should say?

          Hey, it's your mess. Convince yourself of whatever you WANT to do (as all you seem to be doing, here, is looking to justify a foregone conclusion on your part). Then, LIVE WITH IT.

          I'm out.
          Obviously this is going nowheres. We've already talked to the inspector and we're good to go. There is no physical way to "squelch" the source without tearing down the entire house and rebuilding it. There's something called new construction, where certain codes need to be followed. Because our house was built in the early 1900's, he said we're good to go. So long as we use plenum grade if we go down a cold air return.
          -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

          Comment


            #25
            Re: Questions about STP.

            Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
            Obviously this is going nowheres.
            Absolutely right! I've discovered that you obviously "know it all" and don't need the benefit of others' experiences. I'm sure glad you won't be asking me any questions about SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Pro/Engineer, 3D modeling, electronic design, software development, IDS's, encrypted tunnels or any of the other issues that are likely to fall into your lap as you'll already have the answers for those, as well!

            We've already talked to the inspector and we're good to go.
            Great! Glad to hear it! I didn't realize he was also qualified as a network technician *or* electrical engineer -- to be able to address your interference issues! (or, perhaps he DID!)

            There is no physical way to "squelch" the source without tearing down the entire house and rebuilding it.
            You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I guess I was just LUCKY that I was able to DO IT RIGHT in this 40 year old home WITHOUT A BASEMENT OR ATTIC! Maybe the electrons in this part of the country are better behaved...

            There's something called new construction, where certain codes need to be followed. Because our house was built in the early 1900's, he said we're good to go. So long as we use plenum grade if we go down a cold air return.
            Yes, being built in the early 1900's means you won't have EMI/RFI problems! Those old electrons are worn out, by now.

            Good luck! Time to edit my Ignore List as I'll obviously not be able to tell you anything that you don't already know. I can, instead, spend my time addressing the issues that other folks raise...

            Comment


              #26
              Re: Questions about STP.

              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
              Absolutely right! I've discovered that you obviously "know it all" and don't need the benefit of others' experiences. I'm sure glad you won't be asking me any questions about SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Pro/Engineer, 3D modeling, electronic design, software development, IDS's, encrypted tunnels or any of the other issues that are likely to fall into your lap as you'll already have the answers for those, as well!



              Great! Glad to hear it! I didn't realize he was also qualified as a network technician *or* electrical engineer -- to be able to address your interference issues! (or, perhaps he DID!)



              You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I guess I was just LUCKY that I was able to DO IT RIGHT in this 40 year old home WITHOUT A BASEMENT OR ATTIC! Maybe the electrons in this part of the country are better behaved...



              Yes, being built in the early 1900's means you won't have EMI/RFI problems! Those old electrons are worn out, by now.

              Good luck! Time to edit my Ignore List as I'll obviously not be able to tell you anything that you don't already know. I can, instead, spend my time addressing the issues that other folks raise...
              Curious.George, I don't know what your issue is, but it seems you're the one that has to always have the last say, and always be right.

              We met the code, the code inspector has no idea whether the ethernet wire's we ran are going to have interference with the AC wires, because that's not his job, his job is to make sure we're not breaking any laws when running wires, etc.

              Your house is not built like our house. In your house, you might have been able to run the AC wires through conduit. In our house, once again, it physically is not an option, without tearing down the entire house. If you want pictures to see why, I can send them. But whoever originally wired this house with knob and tube wiring did a horrible job.

              And then when some 18 year old replaced the knob and tube with Romex, he did a horrible job. We paid an electrician to come fix it, which costed us a lot of money, and he had to get a permit, electricity had to be shut off, and before it could be turned back on, and inspector had to come and verify EVERYTHING was up to code.

              The way we ran the ethernet wires where going through the cold air return, that's not up to code, hence the reason we switched to plenum grade, which is now up to code. They run right next to the Romex, which is up to code, because the romex only goes through the cold air return floor joists at the corner, that's allowed. If the wire ran straight across or something, that wouldn't be up to code.

              But you came here, never to answer my question about STP. You never suggested anything about ethernet, just like with the MCU form. You claimed you had tricks to make the MCU code more secure, but when I said I was all ears, now all of a sudden, it's a trade secret that you can't give away.

              Did you ever come here to suggest a good brand of STP / SF/FTP ethernet or was it just to tear into me? Because that's what you seem to be doing. I make a post, you don't actually answer the post, you just argue about my post.

              I thought you were done with this thread. But now I see you're back again. It was a simple question I asked that could have been answered in one or two posts, now we're on what? Page two or three? You even suggested I wrap the current CAT6 with braid. But then you go on to say that running shielded CAT6 next to AC lines is against code! I don't think you really know what you're talking about as much as you think you do. I, for a fact, have no problems admitting shielded ethernet is something I'm not familiar with, hence the reason I came here and asked.

              If I knew it all, I surely wouldn't be asking and learning all the stuff I'm asking and learning!
              -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

              Comment


                #27
                Re: Questions about STP.

                Here, to make you feel better, I double checked our with licensed electrician, Jim Caporiccio and Mike from CAC. For residential, we're breaking absolutely no laws running ethernet over the AC lines.

                The reason we cannot run conduit, the subfloor is pine floors that don't stop at the walls. This makes it extremely hard to put something like new subfloor down. You cut the old subfloor up, there's no floor joists at the walls. The old pine subfloor that runs under the wall holds it up.

                But anyways, call Steve, our local code enforcer, and simply ask if it's against code to run low voltage wires (coax, ethernet, telephone) over AC romex and see what he says:
                (607) 962-0340

                He's the actual supervisor for the code enforcement and was the one who came and saw our ethernet, UTP, running over the AC lines in the basement. All he said was we need GFCI outlets down there and we were good to go.

                I've called and left a message for him to call me back Monday, to once again, be told, that for Residential, in our area, there's no law against running low voltage wires across AC lines.
                Last edited by Spork Schivago; 03-30-2018, 06:53 PM.
                -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                Comment


                  #28
                  Re: Questions about STP.

                  Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
                  We met the code, the code inspector has no idea whether the ethernet wire's we ran are going to have interference with the AC wires, because that's not his job, his job is to make sure we're not breaking any laws when running wires, etc.
                  And the inspector allows you to have "low voltage signalling wires within 50mm of power conductors"? Then your inspector doesn't know the Code.

                  Your house is not built like our house. In your house, you might have been able to run the AC wires through conduit. In our house, once again, it physically is not an option, without tearing down the entire house. If you want pictures to see why, I can send them. But whoever originally wired this house with knob and tube wiring did a horrible job.
                  In our house, there is NO conduit and NO ductwork suitable for running cable.

                  There's no basement/crawl space to run cable through.

                  There's no attic to run cable through.

                  So, the idea of running cable -- of any kind -- represented a HUGE undertaking for us (140 drops, here -- not counting CATV and TELCO): open all the walls and a good portion of the ceilings; hope that what you find can be "worked around". The alternatives were to run all of the wires on the exterior of the building (in EMT) or to run them across the roof (also in EMT) and carefully try to drill through it into the interior walls -- again, hoping not to encounter anything prohibitive in the process.

                  The only other alternative would have been to resort to wireless -- which has privacy issues and represents a DoS attack surface. And, which would have required ~100 wall warts to be distributed around the house (in addition to being an eyesore, it would have required adding dozens of outlets just to provide places to plug them all in!)

                  And then when some 18 year old replaced the knob and tube with Romex, he did a horrible job. We paid an electrician to come fix it, which costed us a lot of money, and he had to get a permit, electricity had to be shut off, and before it could be turned back on, and inspector had to come and verify EVERYTHING was up to code.
                  Your mistake was not getting a permit for the initial job. Whether or not you need a "real electrician" depends on your local jurisdiction; most will allow unlicensed folks to do the rough-in, requiring an inspector to bless it and an electrician to finish off (considerably less effort/cost than having an electrician do the whole job)

                  But you came here, never to answer my question about STP. You never suggested anything about ethernet, just like with the MCU form. You claimed you had tricks to make the MCU code more secure, but when I said I was all ears, now all of a sudden, it's a trade secret that you can't give away.
                  I came to share my first-hand experiences having undertaken an even bigger task of similar nature: CAT5? CAT6? Wireless? Existing structure? I suspect few people have tried to put as much wire into an existing home constructed as ours. So, when I pitch a similar approach to others, I know, first-hand, what is involved, what the costs are likely to be and what problems are likely to be encountered.

                  The same was true of my SolidWorks comments. When I started my business ~30 years back, I was faced with the choice of whether or not to buy CAD products (only $3K, back then) or subcontract those activities out to third parties AND PASS THE BILL ALONG TO MY CLIENT (i.e., costs me nothing to hire someone to do the work so why invest money and time to learn a tool and take on that workload, myself? I can't, in good conscience, bill my client for the time it takes me to learn how to use a tool. Or, for the cost of that tool. Lose-lose??)

                  As re: protecting MCU contents... hey, that's my bread and butter. Something I have almost 40 years of experience doing. Why would I want to give away those hard-earned tricks and lessen my competitive edge? (Hint: I don't share them with my colleagues; nor do they share theirs with me!) We're not talking about using mule tape to pull wires but, rather, something at a much higher level (and value)!

                  [insert story of guy paid $50K to hit a pipe with a hammer: $1 to hit the pipe; $49,999 to know WHERE to hit it!]

                  Besides, you'd undoubtedly find a reason why my solutions weren't applicable to your case. <shrug>

                  Did you ever come here to suggest a good brand of STP / SF/FTP ethernet or was it just to tear into me? Because that's what you seem to be doing. I make a post, you don't actually answer the post, you just argue about my post.
                  I'm doing you the favor of telling you how your post comes across. You haven't sought a solution but, rather, have looked for confirmation that your preselected solution would be adequate -- without giving ANY DATA that folks could use to evaluate the possible impact of your chosen plan of attack.

                  You do know that there are different degrees of shielding that you can get in a cable. And, that usually more means higher cost. You also know that shielding increases the capacitance of the cable. If you're looking to run 99.9 meters and expecting a steady 10Gb speed, your cable selection will be more critical than if you're running 10 feet with an average throughput of 100Kbps.

                  What are we supposed to infer your actual needs are, from your posts?

                  I've told you that industrial installations use ethernet without problems. And, I suspect the amount of power and nature of that power (noisiness) is much worse than what you are seeing. But, they don't expect STP to solve their problems. Rather, they undertake whatever actions/costs are required to ensure they can operate their businesses safely and efficiently in the presence of potential conflicting noise sources.
                  "Hey, Bob... can you stop using the welder while we run these precision parts on the CNC wire-EDM machine?"

                  I thought you were done with this thread. But now I see you're back again. It was a simple question I asked that could have been answered in one or two posts, now we're on what? Page two or three? You even suggested I wrap the current CAT6 with braid. But then you go on to say that running shielded CAT6 next to AC lines is against code! I don't think you really know what you're talking about as much as you think you do. I, for a fact, have no problems admitting shielded ethernet is something I'm not familiar with, hence the reason I came here and asked.
                  Have you THOUGHT about what I said? Let me break it down for you into engineering issues...

                  How have you determined that the problem is caused by the presence of the ROMEX? How have you determined what device(s) on that ROMEX are the actual causes of the problem? (cuz you said they "can't be eliminated")?

                  How severe is the problem? Put a number, expressed in some sort of engineering units on it -- so you can later evaluate how effective your solution has been (by measuring the "solved" situation). How do "cheap" remedies affect that number (turning off various appliances, wrapping a conductor with a shield, etc.)

                  What gives you the confidence to know whether STF will really make a difference? What have you already tried -- and what have those results been -- that leads you to believe STP is the solution?

                  You first MEASURE the problem, then consider solutions, then implement a particular solution, then measure results. Then, if the results aren't what you expected, figure out why (maybe your initial assumptions/data were flawed) and repeat the process.

                  Our land-line had some hellacious noise ("static") issues, recently. Also, two "unexpected" visits from uniformed police officers responding to 911 calls from this address -- that were never made!

                  Given the amount of "technology" and "data traffic" that I have coursing through the residence, the first thing that comes to mind is that I might be causing the problem. And, I surely don't want to complain to TPC if that's the case (as they will be delighted to bill me for a service visit).

                  First step: Remove all the communication devices (wired and wireless) from the equation. Is noise still present? Yes.

                  OK, perhaps some of the CAT3 that I installed (along with the CAT5) is routed near something that could be causing a problem. Remove the CAT3 wiring from the equation -- by disconnecting the main distribution panel from the PSTN feed. Is noise still present (now measuring at the distribution panel instead of at a phone jack)? Yes.

                  OK, perhaps the feeds from the PSTN are suspect. Isolate the house from the PSTN at the external "network interface". Still present (now measuring at the network interface instead of inside the house)? Yes.

                  OK, perhaps the buried cable to the house is suspect. Disconnect my pair (and not any of the neighbors) at the service pylon out by the road. Still present? Yes.

                  Problem is in the phone company's equipment/wiring. Not my fault. Not my responsibility. Nothing I can do about it (other than call TPC).
                  I now have a means of measuring THEIR work towards a solution -- that keeps my equipment and my wiring out of the equation.

                  If I knew it all, I surely wouldn't be asking and learning all the stuff I'm asking and learning!
                  But all you're asking for is product recommendations. You've already decided that STP is the fix -- based on some information that you haven't chosen to share with the people from whom you are expecting to LEARN!

                  It's like asking your doctor which brand of multivitamin to take -- and he replies: "Why are you taking a multivitamin?" (i.e., what DATA led you to believe that a multivitamin was an appropriate choice? How do you think taking the vitamin will alter that data?)
                  Last edited by Curious.George; 03-30-2018, 06:55 PM. Reason: added number of drops

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Re: Questions about STP.

                    I'll give my $.02. My company's policy on running low voltage cabling(regardless of shielding): okay for low voltage cables to cross at 90* within 6 inches. 240 volts or less unshieldied (Romex, etc) minimum 6 inch running parallel. 240 volts and higher 12 inches when running parallel, regardless of power cable type (Romex, MC, EMT). PVC conduit is not shielded at any voltage, so follow Romex guidelines. I've never had a problem when following these guidelines......

                    BTW, I am getting consistent 1000 connections on cat5e on my home network. All of my cabling is separated from power cabling and the network was added after moving in 2013.
                    Stupidity should be a crime, especially for drivers. I have NO patience for them.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Re: Questions about STP.

                      Originally posted by delaware74b View Post
                      I'll give my $.02. My company's policy on running low voltage cabling(regardless of shielding): okay for low voltage cables to cross at 90* within 6 inches. 240 volts or less unshieldied (Romex, etc) minimum 6 inch running parallel. 240 volts and higher 12 inches when running parallel, regardless of power cable type (Romex, MC, EMT). PVC conduit is not shielded at any voltage, so follow Romex guidelines. I've never had a problem when following these guidelines......

                      BTW, I am getting consistent 1000 connections on cat5e on my home network. All of my cabling is separated from power cabling and the network was added after moving in 2013.
                      Is that commercial or residential there? If I could avoid running over the AC lines, the problem would be solved. It's just not possible to avoid them, the way they're ran. I try to avoid them when I can, but the way the Romex is wired throughout the house, there's just places I can't help but to cross. The SF/FTP I think will solve my issue of interference, don't you think? If I can't shield the Romex, shield the ethernet. That's my thought.

                      I know the NEC (National Electric Code) is a lot more forgiving with low voltage wires than they are others. This is not the latest version, but gives you an idea:

                      Code:
                      National Electrical Code 2014
                      Chapter 8 Communications Systems
                      Article 800 Communications Circuits
                      I. General
                      800.24 Mechanical Execution of Work. Communications circuits and equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner. Cables installed exposed on the surface of ceilings and sidewalls shall be supported by the building structure in such a manner that the cable will not be damaged by normal building use. Such cables shall be secured by hardware, including straps, staples, cable ties, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable. The installation shall also conform to 300.4(D) and 300.11.
                      
                      Chapter 3 Wiring Methods and Materials
                      Article 300 Wiring Methods
                      I. General Requirements
                      300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage.
                      
                      (D) Cables and Raceways Parallel to Framing Members and Furring Strips. In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable- or raceway-type wiring method is installed parallel to framing members, such as joists, rafters, or studs, or is installed parallel to furring strips, the cable or raceway shall be installed and supported so that the nearest outside surface of the cable or raceway is not less than 32 mm (11⁄4 in.) from the nearest edge of the framing member or furring strips where nails or screws are likely to penetrate. Where this distance cannot be maintained, the cable or raceway shall be protected from penetration by nails or screws by a steel plate, sleeve, or equivalent at least 1.6 mm (1⁄16 in.) thick.
                      
                      300.11 Securing and Supporting.
                      Please see NEC for full text
                      -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Re: Questions about STP.

                        For each room, we'll have a minimum of four wall plates. For the larger rooms, we'll have two per long wall. Each wall plate will have coax, cat5e (plentium) and I think I'm going for the SF/FTP. Someone suggested buying a small length and testing it. I think I might give that a shot before spending the big bucks on a 1000 foot.

                        I have exposed wall, in the closet, where the lathe and plaster and asbestos was. We got the asbestos out of there, but lots of the lathe and plaster is still there. I had to cut open a section to see what was behind it, and I got the basement, and addict as well where I can test.

                        I took a sheet of aluminum foil and used it as a home-made shield, just to see what happens, and I seem to get full bandwidth with the short length run, but when I remove it (this is while having the ethernet line going over a 120VAC line), it's cutting out. So I think the foil alone might be enough, but to be certain, I think I'll go for the most resilient to interference, which should be the SF/FTP.

                        I learned about UTP, and STP when I majored in Networking and Repair. But if it wasn't for Diif there, I wouldn't have learned about SF/FTP, so +1 there Diif!

                        If the short length works like I suspect it to, I'll order 1,000 foot. Then I just gotta figure out how to crimp it. I heard about these drain-wires and I'm going to investigate them a bit, I guess that makes it easier grounding them.

                        And just so I got this right, with the shielded stuff, I have to ground the shielding? But the foil as well? So something like SF/FTP, three different types of shielding would need to be grounded on each end?
                        -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Re: Questions about STP.

                          Originally posted by delaware74b View Post
                          I'll give my $.02. My company's policy on running low voltage cabling(regardless of shielding): okay for low voltage cables to cross at 90* within 6 inches. 240 volts or less unshieldied (Romex, etc) minimum 6 inch running parallel. 240 volts and higher 12 inches when running parallel, regardless of power cable type (Romex, MC, EMT). PVC conduit is not shielded at any voltage, so follow Romex guidelines. I've never had a problem when following these guidelines......

                          BTW, I am getting consistent 1000 connections on cat5e on my home network. All of my cabling is separated from power cabling and the network was added after moving in 2013.
                          Now, run one of your cables alongside the power line and repeat the exercise!

                          Then, slip the cable in an earthed shield and repeat the experiment. (somewhere, I have a bunch of slides showing the effects of separation and shielding on data rate/integrity based on how long the conductors lie parallel to each other)

                          Excerpts from NEC Section 800.52 (I think this has been moved to a new section in the latest codebook):

                          You cannot run communications conductors in any raceway, compartment, outlet box, junction box or similar fitting with conductors of electric light, power or Class 1 circuits. Of course, there are exceptions:
                          • You separate the conductors from the power or Class 1 conductors by a barrier.
                          • You introduce power circuit conductors solely to connect to the communications equipment. The power circuit conductors require a minimum of 0.25 in. separation from the communications circuit conductors.

                          In other applications, you must separate communications conductors by at least 2 in. from any electric light, power or Class 1 circuit conductors-unless you install those electric light, power or Class 1 circuit conductors per a Chapter 3 wiring method (raceway, metallic or nonmetallic sheath, or UF cable).
                          (emphasis mine)

                          Note, also, that this means you can't run telephone/network cable in a Jbox that also contains mains supplies! So, having an outlet to power your TV (or computer) and a network drop in the same Jbox is verbotten. You have to use separate Jboxes or use Jboxes that accommodate internal dividers" -- something you aren't likely to find at a big box store! (We had to do this for the TV in the living room and the network/phone/CATV outlets on the kitchen counters)

                          When you install communications wiring and equipment in hollow spaces, vertical shafts, ventilation or air-handling ducts, do so in a way that does not substantially increase the possible spread of fire or products of combustion. Use approved firestops for openings made in fire-rated walls, floors and ceilings
                          In other words, using fire-retardant caulking to seal the points of penetration.

                          Its also interesting to note that this (deliberately?) exposes the occupants of the building to potentially lethal gases formed in the combustion of those plastic products.

                          Never attach communications cable to, or support it with, raceway [300.1] or the power service mast [230.28]. Support via “cable tie to conduit” is not an acceptable method.
                          And, it goes without saying that supporting it from the power cable would be doubly prohibited!

                          Of course, it seems logical that one would have read all of this before undertaking such an endeavor (it's not something you do in an evening!)

                          I guess the inspectors in NY are a wee bit more lax about this sort of thing. Makes you wonder if they actually care about the folks they are serving!

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Re: Questions about STP.

                            Curious.George,

                            I want you to know, I hold nothing against you. You taught me there was an ignore list on badcaps.net and when you said you were editing your ignore list to add me, I started looking and figured I should do the same. But I guess you didn't add me, and I thought by adding you, you simply wouldn't see my posts anymore. But that seems to have been a wrong assumption.

                            I just think we're incompatible as people. It happens, we seem to always bump heads.

                            In my county, they do care about safety. For example, we had to get a permit before we could run the ethernet. And we had to draw up how we were planning on running it and get it approved.

                            Now granted, I'm not arguing that the best way would be to run conduit, but like I said, in my house, it's not possible with as much ethernet that we're running. We estimate around 7,000 foot.

                            Now, the reason it's not possible is because 1) This use to be a single family home, then it was converted to a multi-family home, then it was converted back to a single family home. Down in the basement, there are water lines that go no wheres (that used to go somewheres, because they used to have to have two of everything.

                            The original electrical panel, 100 amp with a 75 amp subpanel feeding off of it. That was horrible and definitely not up to code. But there was some kid that lived here who did "renovations" without a permit, with having it inspected, and did the wiring himself. He knew just enough to cause some serious electrical issues.

                            We had to hire a professional electrician, that was not cheap at all, to fix it. And he's not one that residential people normally call, because he's so expensive. He's the one that businesses call.

                            With the electrical wires in the house, they've drilled holes through support beams and fished wire up, they've cut out notches in the support beam, they've done horrible shit. For the bare copper ground, it's in every outlet, but he just used wire ties and never hooked it to the green screw. Not even on the GFCI outlets.

                            Our electrician said to rewire the house properly would cost more than what the house is worth. It was originally knob and tube. The way the floors run, you cannot lift them up to get to the wires, you have to go through the ceiling of the bottom floor.

                            Tracing wires are almost impossible. next to our toilet, there's a light switch, with the gang box not attached, but the faceplate is attached to the light switch. There's an actual load on that when we flip it. We used a wire tracer and I believe there is an outlet behind the toilet, that they just covered up with plywood.

                            With each room we redo, we fix what we can. With as many runs as we're running (at least 48), there's no way to avoid crossing over an AC line. Especially when you're fishing the coax and Ethernet, other low voltage lines through the wall.

                            But what's the danger here? let's think about it for a second. We're properly bounded, we have plenum grade Ethernet for the telephone. We're buying plenum grade Ethernet that's shielded, CAT 6 or higher, whatever we can find that's good and shielded multiple times.

                            We try like hell not to run over the AC lines, but there's just some times, we cannot avoid it. Taking down the walls doesn't help. We have AC lines that run horizontally all the way across, and vertically.

                            So, why did we get into an argument? It's not because I don't want to rewire my entire house and use conduit, that's for sure. But after talking to the professionals, the ones who do this for a living, and learning it's not possible or feasible because of how much it would cost....we need to look at the next best option. Sometimes, there isn't a perfect choice in life. I wish there was.

                            But are there really any dangers for crossing plenum grade Ethernet over an AC line? I'd say maybe, but the chances of that causing a fire are zilch in my mind. If a fire where to happen, okay, the Ethernet might burn. Plenum is fire resistant. Wood is not. Some of the insulation is, some isn't. We make repairs when we can, and when it's something I don't feel comfortable doing, I come here to ask, or I hire a pro (like with having our panel replaced with a 200-amp panel). I didn't know the codes, I looked through them, there was too much. I didn't want to spend the money thinking I was doing it right, and then find out I bought the wrong grade romex or whatever it's called, and loose all the cash that I spent on the romex.

                            With your last post there, I'm guessing you finally got a hold of Steve. He's a hard guy to get a hold of, but he does know his shit. And if there was any real chance for danger, he wouldn't allow us to run it the way we're running it.

                            The old coax is horrible. The old telephone is horrible. We're replacing that and making it look nice. We're avoiding AC whenever we can, but there's spots we just can't, and that's why we need SFTP or whatever you want to call it.

                            If we were in commercial zoning, then we wouldn't have a choice and would need shielded AC lines, I think they call it BX. Because the house is made out of wood, and because it's soooo hold, there's no plywood between the outside wood and the inside drywall. So air can get in real quick, if there ever was a fire. That would be the first thing I'd like to fix, but that costs a lot of money. We'll get it, but for now, we have a bunch of smoke detectors, carbon-monoxide detectors, fire extinguishers, etc.

                            You seem to have a hard time trusting people, or at least me. The whole fight was about you saying we were breaking the law essentially, by violating the code, and me saying no, we checked, we're good. You couldn't seem to accept that. Like maybe in your area, things are different, I dunno. Your house probably wasn't wired by an 18 year old kid claiming he was some expert.

                            We had soft copper tying into hard copper for a natural gas line for the dryer! They don't make a fighting to mate those, because it's not only dangerous, it's illegal! So this idiot glued a piece to make it fit!

                            We had to pay to have the entire old gas lines ripped out and replaced with a nice new one. Got rid of most of the mess. and eventually, we'll do the same with the water lines.

                            There's electrical wire just hanging down in the basement. It's dead, but I've tried pulling it out, no idea where it goes to, no idea how to trace it. That's a piece that goes through the support beam. There's wires that are hooked to the box, I noticed, that go no where. Just to a junction box, and that's it. I'm going to remove them.

                            The entire basement has something like 8 or 9 flour-scent lights. They're all over the place down there. I gotta replace them with the LED ones. But yeah, no hard feelings or anything. I know you where just trying to keep us safe, but like I said, we weren't breaking any codes, and unfortunately, in this house, we just cannot avoid crossing over an AC line here or there.
                            -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Re: Questions about STP.

                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              And the inspector allows you to have "low voltage signalling wires within 50mm of power conductors"? Then your inspector doesn't know the Code.
                              Once again, code varies from county to county and is different for residential and commerical. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but here, we are not violating any codes by passing over an AC line.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              Your mistake was not getting a permit for the initial job....
                              I guess you missed my post previously. This was not our mistake. That was the previous owners mistake. Ours was going for an inspector that our realtor recommended. He found ZERO code violations. However, when we tried hooking up the dryer, we had issues. Couldn't find away to get the soft copper hooked to the dryer. That's when we found out that wasn't up to code at all. And we got worried. So we called a professional company, highly ranked, Corning Appliance Corporation, to fix that. Then we hired a professional electrician that costed a LOT of money to come in and fix all the electrical problems, which, again, required him to have permits, our electricity had to be shut off, code inspector had to come inspect his work, make sure it was all good.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              I came to share my first-hand experiences having undertaken an even bigger task of similar nature...
                              Were not really looking for your experience doing something similar.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              The same was true of my SolidWorks comments...
                              I'm a knowledge seeker. See, you have no idea what our plans are and why we need SolidWorks. And it actually cost us less than what it cost you. They give deals for disabled veterans. I was in the Marine Corps, I got hurt. My central nervous system is damaged, and my brain is damaged. This affects my memory, real bad. It's spreading.
                              Sometimes, I can remember stuff, but other days, I can't remember nothing. For a long time now, I haven't known my age. My wife tells me, but I don't know what it is.

                              We outsource for multiple things, and we plan on outsourcing for multiple things. But we outsourced to have someone make us this board. And do you know what he did? He changed the board a little bit and started selling it. legally, he's allowed to do this. My wife does the CAD stuff. She has a lot of experience with that. She's already drew up an enclosure for the first invention in SolidWorks. We're going to get a trial of SolidWorks PCB first, just waiting on the key, and because of the huge discount they offered us, this is something I don't think we should refuse, seeing how much it actually costs.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              As re: protecting MCU contents... hey, that's my bread and butter...Why would I want to give away those hard-earned tricks and lessen my competitive edge?...
                              This is where you and I differ. I am all about teaching someone something, even if it means they might make money off of it that I could be making. My source code, it's all open source. I haven't decided yet, but we know for certain, we'll be providing schematics to anyone who asks for them. Not so certain about the source code to these inventions. But the first one is just the starter, to bring in some revenue. All of the money I've spent on this so far, I have made fixing televisions and PCs. I teach people how to fix PCs themselves for free, if they want to learn. Because to me, that's what it's all about. Sharing knowledge, making the world a better place. Maybe they'll invent something I would have never thought of? Maybe they'll invent something that changes the world! I say more power to them!
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              ...I'm doing you the favor of telling you how your post comes across. You haven't sought a solution but, rather, have looked for confirmation that your preselected solution would be adequate...
                              No, I was not looking for confirmation that my pre-selected solution would be adequate. This is something I think you need to work on. You assume things. We came here looking for a _good_ brand of STP. Diif, I think, actually suggested S/FTP. Something I wasn't aware of, and changed our minds. We had talked to the electrician first, James Caporiccio, from James Jr Caporiccio Electric (607) 795-5242. He is top of the line. We explained the situation to him, he came back to our house (even though he wired up the panel last summer). My first idea was conduit. And he said we could use junction boxes, and run conduit here and there. but when I asked about the walls, the ceilings, the floors, that we were fishing it all through, he asked how many rooms we were doing. We said all. He said we couldn't avoid it. It'd literally be cheaper to tear the house down then to run conduit through the entire house. So then, I go to Jeff. He's got a masters in networking and IT management or some shit like that. He came to our house and looked at everything. He said the only options he could come up with was running fibre or using shielded ethernet. Now, keep in mind, before he actually came and looked, he was certain we could avoid the AC lines, one way or another. It wasn't until he actually saw the mess that he realized it wasn't possible.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              You do know that there are different degrees of shielding that you can get in a cable...You also know that shielding increases the capacitance of the cable...
                              Yes, I know there are different degrees of shielding that we can get in a cable. That's why I came and asked my question. That was the whole point! For someone to recommend a good brand, because when I majored in networking, all we learned about was STP. We didn't learn about all the different frequencies of the cable, or the quality, or any of that. We learned that ourselves, by running UTP and using the internet. Now, we're looking for a good brand of SF/FTP or just SFTP, the best we can get. I don't know why this isn't setting in your head, but we're not after 10Gb speed.
                              I did not know that shielding increased the capacitance of the cable. We're looking to run, let's see....right now, for the baby's room, that's probably real close to 100 feet total, maybe 150. So no run should be over 150 feet.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              What are we supposed to infer your actual needs are, from your posts?
                              That I'm looking for high quality shielded cable. Just what I asked. You weren't supposed to infer anything. When we asked about the 5e, we didn't have any trouble like we have now with the shielded stuff, but it's just you and me that seem to be bumping heads, none of the other users.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              I've told you that industrial installations use ethernet without problems...
                              Yes, and I've told you that industrial people are in what's called a commercial zone. There code is a LOT more stringent then ours. For example, here, for commercial, I believe you can only have 1 outlet per circuit. I believe it's required to be shielded. For new construction at least. They need something like the BX wire or whatever it's called or conduit.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              How have you determined that the problem is caused by the presence of the ROMEX?
                              <sigh> yes, that was the first thing we did, before we contacted the electrician to try and figure out how to solve it. We have a piece of wall I never mudded yet. It's screwed in. I unscrewed it, laid a short run of Ethernet over the cable, dropped connections, it was like it wasn't communicating with the gateway at all. Then I took a piece of tin foil, and wrapped it around the Ethernet, where it was going to touch the Romex. I tried again, hey! 1Gbps connection.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              How severe is the problem?...
                              The problem is so severe when I just lay our current cheap cat 6 over the Romex the connection drops. I cannot visit any site at all. I even tried a different ethernet port. It shows in the log how it detects a connection, then dropped, detects, dropped, detects, dropped.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              What gives you the confidence to know whether STF will really make a difference? What have you already tried -- and what have those results been -- that leads you to believe STP is the solution?
                              I have talked to some experts on SpiceWorks, I talked to a guy that knows a hell of a lot more about networking than I do who works at Corning, Inc, and I used the internet to search about possible solutions. We haven't actually tried any yet, because we're still waiting for someone to recommend a good brand. The idea is to buy a short run, maybe 5 or 10 feet, and see how it actually works. See if we get the same results as we do with our Home Depot CAT 6.
                              Originally posted by Curious.George View Post
                              ...
                              But all you're asking for is product recommendations...
                              That's correct. I assume when I login to places like SpiceWorks, people are generally professionals. Same here. I look at their advice, and read posts frequently. You get a good idea of who knows what. So, I don't expect to have to give my entire blueprints of my house to just get someone to recommend a good brand of CAT6+ SFTP ethernet. I just expect them to recommend it. For all they know, I might want to use it as a belt. Should it matter? If it does, I'll mention it. If I don't provide enough info and it doesn't fix my issue, that's on me, not you. I just expect my question to be answered, rather than someone grilling me about breaking the law and all that shit.
                              -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

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