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-   -   Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock (https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69869)

stormy1777 05-27-2018 03:23 PM

Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
15 Attachment(s)
Hi there,

This is a sentimental box/educational challenge at this point; spent a whole day trying to figure out how this works and what is broken - learned a LOT but could not (yet) figure what is wrong or get it to work :)

Pulled many of the parts out of circuit to measure, and they look OK. Here is what I've tested.

1) Voltage when unit is Energized from CN-A1 (Line) to CN-A2 (NEUT) is ~230V, trying to "follow" that voltage:

1.1) voltage across M1 and C3 is really LOW, lie 4-6VAC, not anything 200+?

Have not pulled these two out of circuit since never tested such beasts :) went with what i know already :)

2) the two Diodes D1 & D2 appear to let current only one way, so think these are OK

3) pulled the SCR and tested with volt trigger, volt drop ~0.75

4) Capacitor C2, pulled out and measures 22uF (50V) as marked.

5) Cloud not figure how to measure D3 (DIAC?) it has "531 DB3" on it and it's blue:
maybe it is this: https://www.taitroncomponents.com/ca...asheet/DB3.pdf
diode tester both direction shows nothing, but maybe that is normal, never had to test such a thing :)

it's very small, don't think it is bad.. just a guess :)

6) Resistor R3 out of circuit measures 2M, R5 in-circuit measures 220.

7) with B1 & B2 connected to main board, the voltage between B1 & B2 is ~0VAC when unit is energized, i.e. unit as-is, no changes.

once wires to "coil" (via B1 & B2) are disconnected, then the power between B1 & B2 on the main power board is about 5-6VAC~.

8) BLUE ceramic capacitor marked 501K 20KV (500pF) comes as 540pF out of circuit, not sure if this is too much or still regarded OK, this it the part i think:

http://www.hv-caps.com/High-Voltage-..._501K__55.html


A bit lost as to why the device is not working, i.e. voltage between Ground and Fence is ZERO :) and no light turns on....

If the large board should only output 6VAC, which it does, then, something on the "coil" is bad, or that BLUE ceramic capacitor #8 above is bad, or maybe it's that C2 (not sure if testing same as any capacitor?) or that Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV, no clue how to test for that)..

Not sure how to prove beyond that and appreciate any tips.

Stormy.

petehall347 05-27-2018 03:33 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
https://www.androiderode.com/how-to-test-diac/
i wouldn't attempt to measure output voltage of the unit without the correct equipment ..

R_J 05-27-2018 03:54 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
1 Attachment(s)
the mov is just for spike protection, it should check open with an ohm meter, if it was shorted the fuse would be blown.
"1.1) voltage across M1 and C3 is really LOW, lie 4-6VAC, not anything 200+?"
I believe your fuse is blown open. You checked everything but the fuse.

stormy1777 05-28-2018 04:39 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
1 Attachment(s)
Thanks R_J,

I'm not sure how to EDIT original message, it seems not possible. Here are more updated info after testing a bit more.

I did test the FUSE that was so long ago forgot to mention, it BEEPS in diode mode out of circuit, also I've updated the circuit board you drew with NUMBERS, and measured Voltage between points, I'm not sure if this is a VALID thing/test, but naively i thought it would "find" the spot where voltage is "missing"...?

I think initial testing, I was not pushing on the measurement pins hard enough to make good contact.

Now I can reproduce these measurements pretty consistently:

1) from 1->8 => 230vac all the way through to 32->26 = ~230vac!

2) From 33->27 => ~50VAC.

3) from 27->22 => ~50VAC.

4) from 27-> (12,16) => ~17VAC (Is this normal? should diode drop so much?)

5) from 27-> 4 => mostly 0.6 sometimes jumps to ~18VAC

6) From 22-> 4=> ~50VAC!!

I don't understand enough to know the meaning, why does #4 & #5 drop? is that expected? how come #6 has 50vac, strange I thought...

Any further ideas welcomed. I'll ry to study that DIAC in the coming days.. and maybe desolder and test it if i see it is doable..

Thanks for any further ideas?

Stormy

R_J 05-28-2018 05:03 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
If you use #27 as ground you should measure DC volts at #4 (between 22 and 4 are 2 diodes in series) that change ac to dc.
again using #27 as ground measure the dc at #14, and then at #26 #15 and #31.

If you were to apply DC to a transformer it wouldnot produce any voltage on the secondary, SO they use the scr to switch the dc on and off across the primary and that induces a voltage in the secondary, in this case the high voltage for the fence.
The diac tells the scr to switch on and off.
I dont quite get what you met by "3) pulled the SCR and tested with volt trigger, volt drop ~0.75"
to check the scr, don't use diode test, use resistance,
You should not measure any resistance between anode(A) and cathode (k) If you do it would likely be in the 100k range
You should measure some resistance between Gate (G) and cathode (K) around 30-50 Ω give or take

petehall347 05-28-2018 05:15 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
looks a bit bit like a cdi automotive ignition .

stormy1777 05-28-2018 05:15 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
R_J,
Thanks!! ok, will measure DC.. Is it DC from that moment on?

so I get:
1) From 27-> (4, 5, 6, 13) = 36VDC (stable)

I was thinking to myself, wouldn't it cool if there was some "Emulator" that one would plug such a circuit board, and it would just tell u all the voltages between all points, and u can quickly find the culprit, it sounds like a doable thing, maybe it exists :) :)?

I'll be honest, not sure how to proceed with these volt checks, if in DC or AC :)

for example:

From 34-> 6 = 8VAC (dc jumps all over the place, 500 and down to zero)

does the "coil" board run on DC? maybe i can test it with a separate DC power supply?

Any tips welcomed.

Stormy.

stormy1777 05-28-2018 05:22 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
Petehall347:

Quote:

Originally Posted by petehall347 (Post 829175)
looks a bit bit like a cdi automotive ignition .

what does that tell u? any clues how to debug or weakness of that system?

I'm trying to see if the "coil" board can somehow be tested separately, with DC/AC power source, but not sure what/how to drive that :)

As for right tools to measure voltage, I'm using a multi-meter, eager to learn if any other tool is needed, I'll be glad to invest in that..

Stormy

petehall347 05-28-2018 05:38 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
digital multi-meters blow up testing voltages that can jump large gaps ... expensive mistake that was for sure ..
coils can be tested on ohms for go no go testing .. not 100 percent test but fairly close . need to find data on the coil if possible .
am thinking the capacitor needs to charge before anything happens . then it gets discharged quickly . wish i could help more still have one in bits from a few years back

R_J 05-28-2018 05:44 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
The reading you gave me don't make sense, point 27 and 34 are the same trace, so between #6 and #27 you get 30 vdc stable. but between #6 and #34 "dc jumps all over the place"?
that tells me there is a break in the circuit between point 27 and 34

R_J 05-28-2018 08:27 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
1 Attachment(s)
I made a schematic, I think it is correct

redwire 05-28-2018 08:46 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
1 Attachment(s)
I drew a schematic, instead of cleaning my house. Not all part values known but this should help figuring out things.

It looks like a slow relaxation oscillator making pulsed DC.
The transformer back-emf shuts off the SCR, so not possible to use a light bulb in place of the HV transformer to test things.

redwire 05-28-2018 08:56 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
It works out to 10 seconds between pulses.
22uF and 2MEG, with 165V DC bus and 32V diac trigger.

stormy1777 05-29-2018 03:09 AM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
1 Attachment(s)
Friends -
I'm TOUCHED by the show of attention and good energies, thanks for the schematics, so much talent.. I hope not to disappoint from my end.. too bad cannot EDIT existing POSTS..

I let the system idle for ~1-2 minute before testing, to let things charge up, indeed one can see the voltage climb up, until reaches stable levels (e.g. the vdc50, and 30vdc)

I think there's a thin/grease/film on the back of the board which sometimes causes testing appear different, in any event managed to get good reading from point #34 to #6 and #13 as ~34VDC.. here is an updated list:

1) from 1->8 => 230vac all the way through to 32->26 = ~230vac!

2) From 33->27 => ~50VAC.

3) from 27->22 => ~50VAC.

4) From (27, 34)-> (4, 5, 6, 13) = 36VDC (stable)

5) From 31->15 -> 0.6VDC (testing AC shows as 6VAC) maybe this changes when "triggered"

6) From 34, 35 -> (14,19) = 30VDC (stable)

7) From 36-> 14 => 0.6VDC !??!?? I'm not sure if this is expected??

NOTE on (7): Testing this Diode (D5) in-circuit, black wire on Pin#36 (Cathode) and Red on Pin#35 (Anode) shows 0.55V on DMM, reversing the wires shows "OL", so i think that is OK, maybe need to test this out of circuit??

Not sure if that voltage drop is expected, just going over this diode drops a lot.


Another interesting finding:

8) From 35-> 24 => 27-30VDC

9) From 35->23 => close to zero???!!

NOTE on (9): That is the DIAC marked D3, not sure how/what part it plays in the "triggering", but still I'll try to find time to test this out of circuit and report back.

any other ideas welcomed.
Stormy.

eccerr0r 05-29-2018 08:00 AM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
How about this guess: replace C2, seems this could cause it to no longer oscillate.

Maybe this is a badcaps problem after all? :D

R_J 05-29-2018 10:35 AM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
Are you sure the SCR is any good? I still don't understand the reading you gave earlier in post#1, 3)

eccerr0r 05-29-2018 11:33 AM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
I was guessing C2 as bad as if it were leaky it could also never trigger...but that would somewhat be a wild guess.

It is worth to test if the SCR is still good. If you have a 12V PSU, a small 12V light bulb (NOT SMPS LED), and a 1K resistor you could do a simple test:

Connect PSU+ -> anode of SCR
cathode of SCR -> Light bulb contact 1
Light bulb contact 2 -> PSU-

Light bulb should remain OFF.

Then touch the gate of the SCR through the 1K resistor to PSU+ momentarily.

Light bulb should turn on and stay on.

If this is the case, the SCR is probably good.

stormy1777 05-29-2018 12:03 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
R_J,
regarding: " 3) pulled the SCR and tested with volt trigger, volt drop ~0.75"

I pulled SCR out, and tested as per videos showing to do very similar to what eccerr0r explains, but without a light source, just DMM, and tapped the GATE tip; DMM in diode mode, it showed 0.75 Voltage drop once triggered.. removing contact it went to zero, again triggering it jumped to 0.75Volt drop, and reversing black/red did not do the same thing, so I think the SCR is OK, but as other tests will proceed, I'm open to doing what eccerr0r suggested!

As for C2, that was my *initial* thought (naively thinking, hey that little capacitor must be tired next to all these other tough and some massive components); pulled it FIRST, testing via 2 testers shows 22uF, so on-paper, it shows OK, but i'm willing to go with this hunch, after all, I did not go to badcaps for no reason :) Maybe under real load it doesn't hold the specs.

The only thing, on-hand i can only find 33uF@50V, or 22uF@100V, so I'm suspecting to go with the 22uF@100V and hope that is OK, otherwise i may need to search/order that 22/50v...

I'll do more testing as promised/time permits and report back.
Stormy.

budm 05-29-2018 12:19 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
I have a feeling that the 22Uf cap may have leakage resistance so the Voltage never rise up high enough (the charging resistor is 2.2M) for DIAC to come on, or that 2M is way above 2M. It is just timing cap so you can use 22/100V.
BTW, you can also check the DC V between the two legs of that 22uF cap to see how high it goes up to.

eccerr0r 05-29-2018 12:51 PM

Re: Repair Fence Energizer SS-1000E Fi-Shock
 
Never build RC timers with electrolytic capacitors... at least if you want repeatability.

Now that you're forced to have one, choose least leaky capacitors. I'd say you should definitely use 100V cap there, using a 50V cap there is kind of worrisome especially with that R6 there; 100V caps hopefully are less leaky which helps even more.


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