192MB RAM and Windows XP

[bgavin]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

Before protected mode came along, I did a lot of ASM coding in the IRQ arena. This was mostly serial port processing, but the game is the same.

Every IRQ requires a state change, and the required register/stack pushes. This seems trivial on a fast machine, but Windows does an enormous amount of context switching. This adds up.

I don't game, so I'm clueless as to ACPI reducing FPS. I will take your word for it, as it seems logical. The more complex the system, the slower it runs.

In protected mode, there are many more IRQ available than in real mode. Assigning a unique IRQ to each hardware requirement eliminates the code that determines who is ringing the bell. This happens at every interrupt, so the code execution savings are significant.

I wrote EZ-Tweak to provide a lower impact means of reducing wasted cycles by disabling services. My only gripe with non-ACPI mode is the customer impact. They will whine like crazy if the machine won't shut itself off. This is a destructive option, because it requires a fresh rebuild/install to add or remove ACPI functions.

All of this seems like overkill when it is easier to install more ram.
Or replace the machine.

[jpdoe]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

I would guess the fps increase you're getting with ACPI disabled has to do with the fact that on some machines, enabling ACPI means having a lot of devices banded together on a single IRQ. I don't remember why this is done, but it means that for each IRQ request the CPU receives from this overloaded IRQ, it has to find out which of the devices using this IRQ is the culprit.

[Logistics]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

This has been tried by many games, including myself to increase fps in games. It works every time. I almost always get an 8-10 fps increase, depending on the game of course, and sometimes it's only about a 3-4 fps increase. It was my understanding that it just releives XP of all of it's IRQ-sharing bs that it likes to do in ACPI mode. I don't know the ins-n-outs of exactly why it works, it just does in practice.

The funny thing about this thread is that I did exactly this on a friends C600 a while back which had a pretty useless battery and had to be hooked up to the wall adapater all the time. Ran okay with an original WinXP install with no service packs, but had to scour for good packages of appropriate drivers for it's hardware. If those things allow you to then I'm sure I disabled anything useless like COM/LPT ports, and set it up using a slimmed down Windows Classic appearance.

I still have the driver files I downloaded for it. File-names are: C600_A23.EXE, M3XUA14I.EXE and R54236.EXE

[bgavin]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

...anyway I would install xp with no ACPI. You lose hibernation and and soft-off, but you increase responsiveness a bit.

Interesting hypothesis.

I can't find anything to substantiate nor deny this.
Process Explorer doesn't reveal anything that looks to tie into ACPI.

In my system, System Idle and DPCs take the most system time.
This is followed by McAfee Enterprise, which is known to be a hog for both cycles and resources.

Disabling unnecessary services recovers about 20~50mb, depending upon how radical you go. I've been able to pare down an XP Pro installation to about 49mb, but this is awfully bare bones.

[Logistics]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

I just use Kaspersky's online scanner when I download files I'm not certain about.

If the battery on the laptop doesn't work very well, anymore and you're always running off the power-block, anyway I would install xp with no ACPI. You lose hibernation and and soft-off, but you increase responsiveness a bit.

[Gianni]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

Thanks jpdoe and zandrax

I didn't know the options of Task Manager, I see now that maximum memory used by avgnt.exe is 48MB, by avguard.exe is 64.5MB.
If I open the GUI (avcenter.exe) it eats 53MB peak.

Ciao
Gianni

[zandrax]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

@ zandrax: I checked now on my PC how much RAM Antivir eats, and if I'm not wrong, it is around 8MB (avguard.exe + avgnt.exe).

If I open the GUI it takes 10MB more (avcenter.exe).

Am I missing something?

By default Task Manager shows you only the physical ram your app is using for both its own files (exe and libraries) and for shared elements (usually system dlls): you count the shared libraries more than once and miss the whole memory (both ram and virtual memory a.k.a. "swap file") used by the program and its own libraries, the so-called Private Bytes on XP's Task Manager. If you enable the Private Byte column, you'll discover avguard.exe needs about 55 MB, sched.exe 3.8 and avgnt 2.5: their sum is roughly 60 MB and this is the memory is loaded at startup.
Virtaul Size is memory (ram + virtual memory) required by the program for past and future use: values are usually big (hundreds of MB) because any programs ask in advance for memory it may need in future and some badly written apps "forget" to relese it once it's no more required (this is a memory leak), but it's useful only when dealing with memory leaks or huge swapping.

@ Stevo:
Don't turn to 2000 unless you're forced to: try reducing XP's footprint with nLite. Follow this guide and don't remove any driver you aren't sure.

Zandrax


Zandrax

[NxB]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

TinyXP would be the winner unless you want linux or win2k.

[grss1982]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

A friend asked about this today. He has a laptop which he wants to use for school for word processing and light internet usage. It currently has Windows 98 and he has a copy of Windows XP SP2 which he wants to install on the laptop. Apparently Windows 98 won't let him log onto the school portal as the portal requires a Windows XP based PC. His laptop is a Dell Latitude C600 with a PIII 700Mhz CPU, 192MB PC100 RAM, 20GB Hard drive, ATi M3 8MB graphics card and a DVD drive.
I wasn't sure what to say when he wanted XP on a laptop with 192MB of RAM. I used to run XP off a PII 350 with 160MB RAM and that was ok, wasn't too bad but this was like 3 years ago. So should XP be installed on a PC with 192MB of RAM?

Normally I would define 256MB of RAM as suitable for XP and internet usage, but in this case I'm not sure.

Thanks.

Have you ever heard of TinyXP? Yeah its WAREZ but if I remember correctly it uses nlite, and thus you could have a TinyXp version of your friend's Windows XP. There was even a TinyXP guide floating around the net.

TinyXp even got a review...well sort of:
http://apcmag.com/pirated_windows_mo...real_thing.htm

ALSO..I did find the TinyXP Guide in my computer that I downloaded a long time ago.

http://rapidshare.com/files/21704059...GUIDE.rar.html

NOTE: Use the exact version of the software stated in the guide.

I don't know how much light it is but I'm using Antivir since I discovered it 6 or 7 years ago and till now I have not problem at all and moreover it is free.
I have installed it also on not very fast PC (P3 700Mhz - P3 500MHz) and was not so heavy for them.

Ciao
Gianni

+1

Using Avira here as well.

[momaka]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

jpdoe - very interesting find.
I just set my task manager to show the peak memory usage.
Here are the results for AVG Free 7.5:
Normal/Idle:
avgcc.exe - 240k
avgupsvc.exe - 1000k
avgamsvr.exe - 450k

Max/Updating:
avgcc.exe - 10000k
avgupsvc.exe - 62500k
avgamsvr.exe - 6000k

The thing is, AVG Free 7.5 is getting switched out for AVG Free 8.0. I'm not sure how good that is, but a few people have already told me it's not as great as v.7.5. The interface also looks newer, so it's possible for memory usage to be higher.

stevo - you could get away with not having an antivirus, but you do need a firewall. I like ZoneAlarm free, but that program is not all that ram friendly (~20000k idle and 40000k peak).
However, I strongly recommend Spyware Blaster. The nice thing about it is that it restricts known spyware-infested and spyware-spreading websites from loading any malicious content on your computer - and it does that via registry for IE/FF/Opera, meaning you don't need the program to run to be protected. You just install it once, update it, run it once, and you're done. Occasionally it's good to update it and run it (once a month works well) as newer websites get added to the list. And it's a free program.

[NxB]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

Process Explorer shows virtual and physical memory usage. I think you are seeing what each process reserves in the page file numbers. I know my ati drivers ccc.exe and mom.exe aren't using 600mb and 500mb of page file when I have firefox open. They only use 25mb of physical memory and probably reserve x+ current physical memory they are using.

[jpdoe]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

@gianni

I just happened to be reading your post when my avira antivir started updating. As with other software packages, this is when things get interesting RAM-wise.

I have my task manager configured to show the maximum used ram too.

normal use
avgnt 1MB
avguard 12MB

maximum memory used
avgnt 48MB
avguard 60MB

updating
avgnt 47MB
avguard 14MB


But to tell you the truth, I don't quite get how to read these numbers. I found out the memory usage reported by task mananger doesn't add up. If you find yourself bored someday, try this
- add the memory usage of all the processes reported by task manager.
- compare this with the page file usage reported by task manager
You'll find that the page file usage is much higher.
I have not found a web page explaining this phenomenon.

[NxB]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

Malwarebytes, comodo internet security is ok for an AV. For computers like this 2000 is the only option. You don't want like IE7 and all of the other XP junk.

[Gianni]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

@ zandrax: I checked now on my PC how much RAM Antivir eats, and if I'm not wrong, it is around 8MB (avguard.exe + avgnt.exe).

If I open the GUI it takes 10MB more (avcenter.exe).

Am I missing something?

Ciao
Gianni

[bgavin]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

He needs my EZ-Tweak program to disable unnecessary services... howzat for a blatant plug?

There are a number of places he can find info on this. The Black Viper site comes to mind, among others.

He has to figure out which services he actually requires, those not required. For example, if he does not have a static IP address, the DHCP service is mandatory or the machine hangs during boot.

He can certainly disable System Restore, Security Center, and all the other fluff that consumes RAM and processor cycles.

[Fatal0E]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

I have an old K6-2 500mhz Compaq with 192mb ram -4mb for shared video ram. I prefer XP on it, seems to run better than 2k. I disabled all services that I did not need, disable indexing, system restore. I do not use antivirus on it and it browses very well.

[Wizard]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

Neither.

Get him to add more ram and stay with XP. 2000 lost ability to use other drivers and newer IE aren't supported on 2000. I had 2000 running on machine for 3 years then had to move on.

Cheers, Wizard

[stevo1210]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

I decided to ask my schools IT technician today about the compatibility issue with the schools server system and he said that XP wasn't the only OS supported, but any other NT based OS is, such as Windows NT and WIndows 2000 as both would work fine with the schools server system. My friend also has a copy of Windows 2000 Pro stashed somewhere in his office. So I've talked to him about this, and he seems happy to use Windows 2000 (After all he turns off the WIndows XP eye candy anyway). Now will 192MB of RAM be enough for Windows 2000 Pro SP3 to run?

Thanks.

[stevo1210]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

Would it be OK to go without an antivirus or is that too big of a risk to take?

[stevo1210]

Re: 192MB RAM and Windows XP

On an old laptop like this, I am guessing the battery no longer works...

It kinda does. It runs about 1 hour at max off the battery. Which is still ok I suppose considering I've seen some newer Celeron based notebooks which last for 1.5 hours at max.