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Why don't they do this?

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    #1

    Why don't they do this?

    An idea has crossed my mind, and I can't figure out why it's not done.

    We know hard drives have a cache on them. 16 to 32MB seems to be the norm. It can boost transfer rates, etc.

    So here's my idea. Somewhere, either on the drive itself, or on the motherboard, have user upgradable cache. If it's on the motherboard, you'd need a chipset designed to take advantage of it, along with drivers for that chipset. IMO that's the best solution. Use standard laptop SO-DIMM memory modules. Pop one of those in next to the southbridge chip, and bam! Instant humongus hard drive cache, size depending on the module installed. Something makes me think that would make Vista fly.

    I mean look, you can get a 1GB DDR2-800 module for $11.99 with free shipping from Newegg, or a 2GB module for $16.99.

    Thoughts?
    A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Re: Why don't they do this?

    my thought is that i dunno how much exactly can that boost performance.
    to some degree, yeah, but dunno if it's worthwile...

    i mean real fast speed would mean you have some way of knowing what to buffer and that's science fiction...because system cannot know what file i want next

    otoh, i think i saw ram modules that replace hdd and enable faster os booting...i think asus is making such cards...or was it gigabyte...
    can't bother to find it on youtube right now...

    Comment

      #3
      Re: Why don't they do this?

      Originally posted by acstech
      Somewhere, either on the drive itself, or on the motherboard, have user upgradable cache. If it's on the motherboard, you'd need a chipset designed to take advantage of it, along with drivers for that chipset.

      you're reinventing the wheel. that thing is called RAM and buffers hard drive read/write data already, usually via DMA.

      one more reason why a few megabytes is fairly enough is that the max speed is limited by the physically possible speed (from cache or whatever to the platter), all the hdd controller has to do is sort the data in the cache for optimal access patterns.
      "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

      Comment

        #4
        Re: Why don't they do this?

        memory is not expensive. if a bigger cache was useful some drives would have it.
        capacitor lab yachtmati techmati

        Comment

          #5
          Re: Why don't they do this?

          And yet I see Vista constantly thrashing the HD, slowing things down, even on systems with 4GB of ram.
          A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

          Comment

            #6
            Re: Why don't they do this?

            Several manufacturers seem to be pushing flashrom memory to speed up hard disk read speed. I didn't research the subject, because I'll give it a couple of years for flashrom tech to mature enough to support such continuous writes.
            Vista supports the use of a usb flashrom pendrive to increase performance.
            I should catch up on this, but since I'm not using Vista at the time, I'll leave it as is for now.

            Comment

              #7
              Re: Why don't they do this?

              well, for one thing, if you have large caches, in writeback mode, you had damn well better have a battery on that cache.. Otherwise, what is actually on the disk, and what your computer thinks is already on the disk can get interesting.. Hence why server grade RAID cards with large caches have battery backed memory.. The 16 or 32M caches nowadays are no big deal, and IIRC, most drives are in writethrough mode by default, you have to enable writeback in your OS.

              Comment

                #8
                Re: Why don't they do this?

                It would be an optional feature for those with a UPS. The chipset driver should also have options for those without a battery backup.
                A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Re: Why don't they do this?

                  Actually, somebody invented something like that.

                  Gigabyte!

                  They've got the I-RAM Box, which is a really fast SATA solid state hard drive that uses standard memory dimms and has a battery backup.

                  Only downside? It's limited to 4GB.

                  That should be big enough to do something for Vista.... if you couldn't load Vista itself on it, you could put the whatzit file on it.... you know the swap file thing.

                  Have Fun!
                  Keri
                  The More You Learn The Less You Know!

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Re: Why don't they do this?

                    My friend has one of those gigabyte boards. Basically, it just connects to a pci slot, has a small 3.3v battery on it, and has a sata connector that you hook to your motherboard, sees it as a sata drive.

                    Only problem is the batteries are no good in them. It already went bad in his.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Re: Why don't they do this?

                      What type of battery do the i-RAM use? I was told they were lithium cell batteries that you can get at the supermarket?
                      Don't find love, let love find you. That's why its called falling in love, because you don't force yourself to fall, you just fall. - Anonymous

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Re: Why don't they do this?

                        Originally posted by KeriJane
                        Actually, somebody invented something like that.

                        Gigabyte!

                        They've got the I-RAM Box, which is a really fast SATA solid state hard drive that uses standard memory dimms and has a battery backup.

                        Only downside? It's limited to 4GB.

                        That should be big enough to do something for Vista.... if you couldn't load Vista itself on it, you could put the whatzit file on it.... you know the swap file thing.

                        Have Fun!
                        Keri

                        Gigabyte didn't 'invent' shit.

                        The Navy was using solid state RAM drives in the 80's.

                        .
                        Mann-Made Global Warming.
                        - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
                        -
                        Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
                        - Dr Seuss
                        -
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                        Comment

                          #13
                          Re: Why don't they do this?

                          By the way... user expandable cache isn't new. Remember the old socket 7 boards that had an additional cache RAM slot for processors that didn't have L2 cache onboard?
                          Ludicrous gibs!

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Re: Why don't they do this?

                            I do remember those. That's partly where I got the idea.
                            A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Re: Why don't they do this?

                              Originally posted by acstech
                              Something makes me think that would make Vista fly.
                              Pigs don't fly, ever

                              Haha, seriously tho, if you want this you can just buy a RAID card with user upgradeable memory
                              I've got a LSI 8704ELP myself (128mb soldered on, not user upgradeable tho)
                              And yea, it does make a little difference
                              But as others said; battery backup becomes mandatory
                              And if you get a BSOD it does not matter, data in cache is lost forever (there are some clever solutions from some manufacturers like LSI even for this but it is outside the "normal" stuff you setup/afford)

                              Anyway, it does not make your OS fly, you still depend on that slow ass harddrive if you actually want to read something from them (which is not in cache)
                              Sure, if you buy a gigabyte I-ram then problem solved, but this can be done much cheaper; WinPE (You can load Windows (as of 2K3) into RAM during bootup
                              I have a USB recovery stick, it loads Windows straight into RAM, it's so fast it's kind of ridiculous really (Tho limited to a ISO file of MAX 500MB)

                              Anyway, if you want to do this cheaply just buy the Intel XM25 flash drive, relative to the Gigabyte I-ram or RAID card with cache it's allot cheaper (only about $500)
                              And unlike those two solutions you do not have a problem with dataloss incase of powerfailure or crash
                              "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

                              Comment

                                #16
                                Re: Why don't they do this?

                                BTW- most of Vista's thrashing is actually indexing. I disable indexing on all my drives. With 3.5 gigs of RAM in my work machine, it's actually pretty decent. It was a dog with only a gig, tho.
                                Ludicrous gibs!

                                Comment

                                  #17
                                  Re: Why don't they do this?

                                  Hmm, speaking of timing; http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/16255/1
                                  January 20, 2009 =)
                                  "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

                                  Comment

                                    #18
                                    Re: Why don't they do this?

                                    Originally posted by stevo1210
                                    What type of battery do the i-RAM use? I was told they were lithium cell batteries that you can get at the supermarket?
                                    Its some special lithium battery, looks like a large cell phone battery.

                                    Comment

                                      #19
                                      Re: Why don't they do this?

                                      and if battery fail what happen lol
                                      capacitor lab yachtmati techmati

                                      Comment

                                        #20
                                        Re: Why don't they do this?

                                        They let you backup the thing to a compact flash card.

                                        Not exactly what I was thinking, but interesting.
                                        A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

                                        Comment

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