Obscure SMTP Bug #101

[bgavin]

Here's one I haven't seen before: SMTP fails to sites using authentication, works fine as anonymous. This is not a logon failure, but a failure to connect at all.

The root cause is the Driverpacks CHIPSET slipstream. I had to rebuild, rebuild, rebuild until I was able to pin it down. When I removed this component from the slipstream build, it stopped failing.

Wireshark doesn't show a heckuva lot on the trace.
Telnet to smtp.surewest.net 25 works just fine.
Telnet to smtpauth.surewest.net 25 never gets a response back. It just hangs dead until Telnet times out. Zilch on the trace. The TCP packet goes to the destination, then dies.

Compaq machine,
(NB) Intel P35/G33/G31 rev. 10
(SB) Intel 82801GB (ICH7/R) rev. A1
MSI "Boston" board made for Compaq.

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

who and why is using smtp today anyway?

using a program for something you can do via web...dunno...
i'm glad i don't use it anymore.
that goes for news(nntp..hehe) too.

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

who and why is using smtp today anyway?

Just all mail providers in the world, for sending and receiving emails: it's the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol.

using a program for something you can do via web...dunno...
i'm glad i don't use it anymore.

Your client may be an http application (webmail), but SMTP is still widely used for the trasfer between providers.

that goes for news(nntp..hehe) too.

Nntp never hurt someone. BTW, as an interface GoogleGroups lacks a lot of features an average Newsreader carries (e.g. tree lists of messages, ability to upload/download binaries, plonk list and such) and as a server doesn't respect cancel requests: IMHO it's useful mainly for historycal reference.

Zandrax

[bgavin]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

I hung a sniffer on the line, and the authenticating SMTP server simply dies. No response back of any kind. Hand shaking fails with no response whatsoever.

This server is flaky as hell... started doing very methodical testing using multiple builds with various versions of drivers... the bug changes, so chipset drivers aren't the root cause. Restesting with the same chipset drivers that failed before, results in success.

This SMTP server fails on mulitple machines, but is also site dependent. I have more success authenticating to it from off-subnet. Using the customer subnet (same as the server) results in 100% failure. Surewest swept it under the rug, cuz they don't have a clue about what is broken. Since it is an authentication server for users off-subnet, they don't have much inclination to fix it. Still broken.

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

>Your client may be an http application (webmail), but SMTP is still widely used for the trasfer between providers.

exactly, so who cares?
i can use webmail, and let them(providers) use anything they want.

>Nntp never hurt someone

just like smtp and ip/tcp and the rest...machines or protocols don't hurt anyone untill humans start using them..hehe...
i think there's child porn on news too, etc.

> BTW, as an interface GoogleGroups lacks a lot of features an average Newsreader carries (e.g. tree lists of messages, ability to upload/download binaries, plonk list and such) and as a server doesn't respect cancel requests: IMHO it's useful mainly for historycal reference.

i would say it quite the opposite; for news search is very important, and ng programs only dload a small portion of everything.
google indexes it all.
tree lists?


although i think tree view is unusable crap.
dunno how much you participated in ng discussions, but if you have larger discussion, hunting down posts thru tree view(which most ng readers use) is crap.
forum style is much better suited for conversations...

binaries, yeah, you have a point there, but there's plenty of stuff ng binaries aside, thank you.
like i said, i find it weird to actually be paying for pirated stuff(which is what subscription fee to access ng server, like giganews etc., boils down to), also because one can find more content on p2p.

googlegroups is usefull for what ng's originally are ment to be; to talk, and much more than ng programs. (binaries are essentially a hack when it comes to ngs)
also, without search(and with ng programs you essentially have no search) ngs are crap, so overall web frontend is probably what's keeping it alive...

i just like to be able to use web browser to do more....less programs-less mess...
gmail and googlegroups is fine by me.
10x better than mail and nntp programs.

so if i had the issue bgavin has, i would just suggest user uses webinterface and that would be it.
wouildn't waste a second on it.

[bgavin]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

so if i had the issue bgavin has, i would just suggest user uses webinterface and that would be it. wouildn't waste a second on it.

The client is a high six-figure business that relies on Outlook for business mail. The .PST is nearly a gig in size.. completely unusable in a web-based mail application.

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

exactly, so who cares?
i can use webmail, and let them(providers) use anything they want.

All right, but for bgavin's client a webmail can be too impractical (too many messages, attachments and all).

i think there's child porn on news too, etc.

Thanks, not interested. Anyway which relationship exists between it and the protocol?

i would say it quite the opposite; for news search is very important, and ng programs only dload a small portion of everything.

I know. I have an alternative approach: I cache on my pc all newgroups I attend and set the newsreader to dig into the cache.

tree lists?

Last time I checked Google Groups (over a year ago) I couldn't enable the tree list: I suppose it was my fault.

although i think tree view is unusable crap.
dunno how much you participated in ng discussions, but if you have larger discussion, hunting down posts thru tree view(which most ng readers use) is crap.
forum style is much better suited for conversations...

I love tree view and I configured XNews, my newsreader, to show the preview in the right panel. I find hard to follow a continuous stream of post without a visual feedback of past and next messages: largest discussion I remember was 300 messages or something like that, without the list I would have been virtually lost.
Moreover I use a lot of keyboard hotkeys: if I want to read the next post, I just press [.] (dot key), if I want to read the post header I press [H].
I can use a fake "From" address and set a valid "Reply-To" address: people will reply or contact my address without issues and I keep most spammers out of my mailbox since they look only for the From address.
The most common function in a newsreader is the kill file, an blacklist for user and keywords: useful for not displaying a.k.a. "plonking" messages from trolls, MI5 conspiration fanatics spamming on every newsgroup or just "C.H.E.A.P. W.A.T.C.H.E.S" vendors . In short, I use it to enhance the signal/noise ratio. Google Groups don't offer a kill file and Google's policy of do not honouring cancel requests (request to delete a post because it's spam) doesn't help either: you are forced with hacks on the browser side (e.g. this one works only in Firefox and needs a few extensions). Go figure ...

BTW Hamster is the newsserver I use as a local cache.

binaries, yeah, you have a point there, but there's plenty of stuff ng binaries aside, thank you. [...] (binaries are essentially a hack when it comes to ngs)

I agree with you and I don't attend binary groups: nevertheless, GG can't access them at all.

i just like to be able to use web browser to do more....less programs-less mess...
gmail and googlegroups is fine by me.
10x better than mail and nntp programs.

I used webmails for years from different providers (Lycos, Hotmail, Yahoo): I could set filters and move mail in different folders but not tree view a discussion, I had basically no control over text formatting (I usually send just plain text mails: only Hotmail allowed that and only by selecting a "Switch to text mode" link everytime ) and I had trouble with message search (slow and with a limited depth: I coudn't search a word in a folder with 5000+ mails because there were too many messages ...). A mail client is a different thing.
The same for the newsreader: the XNews + Hamster couple is my favourite.

Anyway, no offence intended: if webapps satisfy all your need, then don't change anything. On my side, I need something more powerful at my fingertips.

Zandrax

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

>All right, but for bgavin's client a webmail can be too impractical (too many messages, attachments and all).

yeah, it seems one can do (for example) gmail->email client, but the other way around it not that easy(for migration of those using email programs to the web mail).
but they could use outlook for archived messages, and convert to webmail for new stuff.

>Thanks, not interested. Anyway which relationship exists between it and the protocol?

you said nntp never hurt someone.
and it's correct, but people using it did. just like with any other technology.

>I know. I have an alternative approach: I cache on my pc all newgroups I attend and set the newsreader to dig into the cache.

which still gives you only the portion of overall group content.
i also have the .txt archives of messages i did back in the day, but tracing it now is surely harder than using google groups.


>I find hard to follow a continuous stream of post without a visual feedback of past and next messages: largest discussion I remember was 300 messages or something like that, without the list I would have been virtually lost.

you're aware that this is illogical, right? i mean you can't use that argument against forums(that we now use, and you're doing quite fine) and google groupos, which applies forum gui to ngs.

discussions are conversations that you read like the dialog between many people...a theater play, if you wish: now, why would it make sense to have some virtual tree that doesn't really bring anything, but just wastes space?

why do you say "without a visual feedback of past and next messages"?
both forums and google groups easilly provide that.
ng reader does so too, but it wastes screen space on tree.

google groups adopts the forum style, and it's ideal for longer discussions...no need to click on particular branche of the tree, you just naturally scroll thru the content.

^^ clickable image up here


long discussions on news is just pita. there is no orientation when you're clicking thru the tree. those items don't give message preview, you have to click 300 times for 300 messages...so it's easy to get lost...and easy to miss somebody's message...
i used agent, one of the best ng readers, and long discussions were just crap...
BECAUSE of the tree concept
(offcourse, ng is such a system that without tree you have nothing, so tree is just a neccessity of an old system that can't do what forum can do naturally...it lacks the "verticality" of web page....web page can be endlessly long...)

spam? i didn't use ngs for few years, and last time i did there wasn't so much spam, at least not on groups i was on...
but yeah, now there's probably more: google has excellent spam filter on gmail and they should apply that to groups too, as looking at how good that filter is, it seems they know exactly who's sending spam...


about cancel requests: only weird thing i saw was the option of the poster to remove his post after a certain time.
i dunno what's that used for, and what moron posts something just so it can be erased some time later...
it means his words are useless to him and he considers they are also useless to others too...

>I agree with you and I don't attend binary groups: nevertheless, GG can't access them at all.

gg is not accessing binaries at all.
why would they?
it's a hellhole of piracy that would only damage their business.

>On my side, I need something more powerful at my fingertips.

the thing about huge archives you need the most is the ability to search them.
and you don't have that in ng reader(as you can never dload it all...can never have everything google(and prior to that deja news) has).

mail search? well, you can guess how search specialist(google) does searching in mail.
it does it well.
hotmail and yahoo i tries myself too, and i wouldn't be using those.
it's crap.
gmail is not.

using mail and news programs is essentially doing more work, and nothing else.
so it's just a waste of time.
i'm not always inclined just to use new stuff, but when new is clearly better than the old, i do.
gmail and google groups beat outlook and news readers.

there's one more thing: i don't really like the mail concept as a whole: if i have a friend i talk a lot with i want him to come to ou private forum because it's just a lot neater to have forum for discussions, and for searching the discussions.

it's prettier, and neat, it doesn't look like crap on news (incidentally, this forum doesn't have quote tags on quick reply so i'm kinda jumping into my own mouth with '>' usage...). ngs just lack a lot of the things that make discussions on forums tidier.

here's the floating quick-reply of ars forum...it just makes repyling faster and easier...
(didn't show how i can move it anywhere i like(to view both message i'm respoing to, and my rpey window) but rest assured it does it easilly..))
xvid avi
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8...db6fb9a8902bda
(oh yeah, uploading is easier via web too...how would i give you the link to this on ngs? well, i couldn't because there are no links there....)

and for attaching images when and where i want them (try to do what you did above (with the xnews screenshot) in ngs..hehe) etc.
so overall forums are just a best way to communicate. i prefer it to ngs and mail.
(offcourse, business has it's secrets...so they could use private forums...hehe)

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

you said nntp never hurt someone.
and it's correct, but people using it did. just like with any other technology.

Thanks, now I get it.

which still gives you only the portion of overall group content.
i also have the .txt archives of messages i did back in the day, but tracing it now is surely harder than using google groups.

You have a point here

you're aware that this is illogical, right? i mean you can't use that argument against forums(that we now use, and you're doing quite fine) and google groupos, which applies forum gui to ngs.

discussions are conversations that you read like the dialog between many people...a theater play, if you wish: now, why would it make sense to have some virtual tree that doesn't really bring anything, but just wastes space?

[...] google groups adopts the forum style, and it's ideal for longer discussions...no need to click on particular branche of the tree, you just naturally scroll thru the content.

It does makes sense to me instead: thread shorter than 7-8 posts are usually dialogues between two persons and are linear (A asks, B replies, then A replies to B, B replies to A etc.), written in a chronological order; on the other hand, longer threads usually involve more people which replies to different messages at different times: the result is a large tread which is split into subthreads each one regarding a small part of the mother thread. This is completely different from a forum where a thread is unsplittable, posts interleave between each others and one can reply to all previous post in a single one.

An example: among others, I attend it.comp.hardware, an italian group about computer hardware. Someone wants to buy a new computer and ask for advice; usually 3 or 4 experts reply with different suggestions. In the newsgroup the user replies to every post he think worthwhile and the expert replies again to replies to its own posts: he may write into another subthread (e.g. disagree with the suggestion) but subthreads are always separated one from the other. There is a tecnical reason behind that: each poster submit its messages from a different server so you can't be certain if the message will be delivered to everyone and if it will be delivered within a reasonable time; another issue is messages can't be edited once posted; best way to summarize a thread is writing a post in a new thread, not just replying to the latest post So a tree view makes sense because it's coherent with the newsgroup's hierarchy.
In a fourm things would have been different: the standard view is the chronological stream of messages (from older to newer) so everyone writes on the same page hosted on a single server, everyone replies to other posts usually in a single message (or in a few ones). The user can correct its posts (within or not time limits) and expects a collaborative approach from others. Since the stream can be not linear, the user must read all previous posts in order to find the one[s] he wants to reply to and is advised to quote the relevant part.

That's at least how I see them.

i used agent, one of the best ng readers, and long discussions were just crap...
BECAUSE of the tree concept
(offcourse, ng is such a system that without tree you have nothing, so tree is just a neccessity of an old system that can't do what forum can do naturally...it lacks the "verticality" of web page....web page can be endlessly long...)

Were crap because of crappy content or because of the tree view? I agree most long threads are flame wars, true, but some are interesting tecnical discussions.
Anyway the threaded discussion is the base concept of newsgroups: if you remove the tree view, you've got a forum.

spam? i didn't use ngs for few years, and last time i did there wasn't so much spam, at least not on groups i was on...

Unfortunately there is: see Wikipedia's Newsgroup spam article.

about cancel requests: only weird thing i saw was the option of the poster to remove his post after a certain time.
i dunno what's that used for, and what moron posts something just so it can be erased some time later...
it means his words are useless to him and he considers they are also useless to others too...

Some people don't want some of their messages to be indexed and set the X-No-Archive flag on them. Don't ask me why they do this, I never did.

the thing about huge archives you need the most is the ability to search them.
and you don't have that in ng reader(as you can never dload it all...can never have everything google(and prior to that deja news) has).

I agree: in fact I already stated Google Groups is useful as a big archive where you can find old posts and search them easily. OTOH Google Groups lacks what I use everyday (kill list, setting a score for importance and listing according to it, delete inapporpriate messages, Reply-To field and others) so I can't be at ease as I'm with my newsreader.

mail search? well, you can guess how search specialist(google) does searching in mail.

Ok, just to know.

using mail and news programs is essentially doing more work, and nothing else.
so it's just a waste of time.
i'm not always inclined just to use new stuff, but when new is clearly better than the old, i do.
gmail and google groups beat outlook and news readers.

If web apps satisfy you, why don't use them. My point is Google Groups doesn't satisfy me (see above); I have no experience with Gmail so I don't comment it. I don't use Outlook however.

there's one more thing: i don't really like the mail concept as a whole: if i have a friend i talk a lot with i want him to come to ou private forum because it's just a lot neater to have forum for discussions, and for searching the discussions.

Your position: I prefer a simple mail exchange.

it's prettier, and neat, it doesn't look like crap on news [...]

A friend of mine would say that appeareance is nothing compared to substance, but you got a point for me.
You know, nowadays newsreaders can handle attachments only in binary groups and can't read HTML: posts are only simple text mail ones, long links are cut, the only image you can see is the B/W X-Face (and only with some newsreaders), you have to refer to external sites for thing you can't embedd in a post. Most are happy with it, some even more because they hate forums and are afraid Usenet will become a sort of forum if evolves
Nevertheless things can be bettered: I agree allowing formatted mails (maybe a subset of html or BBCode), direct linking, some attachments (maybe a limit on maximal dimension just to avoid abuse) could improve the comunication. This kind of discussion continues since at least 10 years and the only thing everyone agrees is it will break backward compatibility: something a bit heavy for a service which is still like 20 years ago.

If you want to quote someting in Badcaps (or any other forum based on VBulletin), just write the BBCode: "[ QUOTE=Zandrax ]" for opening a quote and "[ /QUOTE ]" for closing it, without quotation marks (") and spaces.

Zandrax

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

on the other hand, longer threads usually involve more people which replies to different messages at different times: the result is a large tread which is split into subthreads each one regarding a small part of the mother thread.

what do you mean subthreads?
answers begin with Re: <subject>
so they should all be under same branch(?)

are you saying people are modifying the subject?

if you remove the tree view, you've got a forum.

forum is one web page with many comments...ng without tree is one message from the thread, and you couldn't navigate to other messages...
(afaik, usenet readers don't have "list" view, but only tree?)

Your position: I prefer a simple mail exchange.

is it not more natural to have whole discussion at one place, ie one web page, that to spread it over many mails?
why fragment?
it's also harder to see what was said before.

A friend of mine would say that appeareance is nothing compared to substance, but you got a point for me.

ability to have tidy text with additions doesn't change content itself.
one can write same things, only here it easier to read and faster to navigate.
offcourse, minus filtering you like so much...heh...

Most are happy with it, some even more because they hate forums

because of one big difference; forums are usually moderated, while groups are usually not ?

If you want to quote someting in Badcaps (or any other forum based on VBulletin), just write the BBCode: "[ QUOTE=Zandrax ]" for opening a quote and "[ /QUOTE ]" for closing it, without quotation marks (") and spaces.

i know that, but it requires me to write those tags.
if you saw the video clip you know there are better and easier eays than that.

in the end, i use quick reply to be faster, and writing quote tags doesn't make me faster...

i guess i could use arsclip ( http://www.joejoesoft.com/cms/showpage.php?cid=97 ) and put both tags to clipboard and then insert, but...uhm...

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

what do you mean subthreads?
answers begin with Re: <subject>
so they should all be under same branch(?)

are you saying people are modifying the subject?

Subthread is a badly chosen word, true: I mean a thread of replies from a reply. Something like this:



It's a thread about magnetic fields in the it.comp. retrocomputing group: someone asks if magnetic fields from a switching psu of a lamp may affect the old 8" and 5" 1/4 floppies he stores in the near shelf. The first three replies start three different "subthreads": one suggests that such fields aren't strongh enough to be harmful for data, another that can demagnetize them instead and the third offer a practical approach: move the psu to avoid the issue

forum is one web page with many comments...ng without tree is one message from the thread, and you couldn't navigate to other messages...
(afaik, usenet readers don't have "list" view, but only tree?)

I don't know other newsreaders, but XNews has a "Tree view toggle" button.
E.g. it.news.aiuto (newbie aid group) with Tree view enabled ([T] button in lower right corner):


Same group with Tree view disabled:


Main difference is XNews lists all messages within the same group, so in linear mode all threads are mixed between each other; a forum, instead, lists all messages of a specific thread.

is it not more natural to have whole discussion at one place, ie one web page, that to spread it over many mails?
why fragment?
it's also harder to see what was said before.

I don't know if it's more natural: habit plays a great role. Anyway I feel more intimacy in exchanging mails than in writing on a forum: e.g. I usually begin with a wordplay based on previous mail's last sentence which I think would be quite silly in a forum message, I digress sometimes, etc.; OTOH you have good points: a single page makes sense for a single threaded discussion, it's self contained and easier to search.

ability to have tidy text with additions doesn't change content itself.
one can write same things, only here it easier to read and faster to navigate.
offcourse, minus filtering you like so much...heh...

Filtering is [or shopuld be?] implemented into the reader: if you notice, I removed some spam messages from the XNews screenshots I posted. I think a good html reader is a newsereader with an html engine, not a browser with some newsreader features

because of one big difference; forums are usually moderated, while groups are usually not ?

Most newsgroups are not moderated, some are: usually are high contrast opinion groups prone to flamage (eg. politics, religions, ...) or to keep spammers and scammers out of the door (eg. medical groups: spammers may advertise a "good specialist" while scammers deceive themselves as experts). The alt.* and it-alt.* hierachies are unmoderated by choice since the beginning.

i know that, but it requires me to write those tags.
if you saw the video clip you know there are better and easier eays than that.

in the end, i use quick reply to be faster, and writing quote tags doesn't make me faster...

i guess i could use arsclip ( http://www.joejoesoft.com/cms/showpage.php?cid=97 ) and put both tags to clipboard and then insert, but...uhm...

I simply copy and paste, in some cases I write them. The enhanced clipboard seems a good solution to me.

Zandrax

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

It's a thread about magnetic fields in the it.comp. retrocomputing group: someone asks if magnetic fields from a switching psu of a lamp may affect the old 8" and 5" 1/4 floppies he stores in the near shelf. The first three replies start three different "subthreads": one suggests that such fields aren't strongh enough to be harmful for data, another that can demagnetize them instead and the third offer a practical approach: move the psu to avoid the iss

from a system level, how are they separated?
what makes your reader know it should show 3 branches there?
is it changing the subject(beginnings of each branch have different subject lines, but some replies after it return to usual subject...i don't get it?)

subthread is probably a good word, i'm asking what triggers the subthread creation?

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

Warning: long post.

from a system level, how are they separated?
what makes your reader know it should show 3 branches there?
is it changing the subject(beginnings of each branch have different subject lines, but some replies after it return to usual subject...i don't get it?)

Every message has an unique ID called Message-ID: field: is an unique string followed by the news provider's domain name and delimited by angle brackets. A reply refers to the original post by copying the original post's Message-ID into a References: field. Three examples:

First message of the "magnetic field" thread: XNews shows the full message header (I scrambled mail addresses, IPs and content). You can spot the From: filed (sender's public name and email address), the User-Agent: (newsreader's public name: Mozilla Thunderbird on a Linux/Unix OS), the Content-Type: (plain text encoded in the ISO-8859-15 codepage a.k.a. Latin9) and more others: the Message-ID: field (yellow background) is <4905fd7f$0$40314$4fafbaef@reader5.news.tin.it>, angle brackets included.
Notice there isn't a References: field because it's the first message which obviously doesn't reply to anything. Moreover RFC 1036 states the Message-ID: field is mandatory for every post but the References: one is only for replies and is forbidden in first messages.



One of "first replies": has a different Message-ID: field [different provider too: this one is Google Groups and the sender used Safari on a PowerPC Macintosh running OS X Tiger ] and a References: field. It refers to the original post so References: includes <4905fd7f$0$40314$4fafbaef@reader5.news.tin.it>. Subject is changed only because Google Groups changed the codepage to ISO-8859-1 a.k.a. Latin1: XNews cannot read not-English characters (such as à [small a, acute accent] in integrità, integrity) from codepages different from Latin1 and shows the previous garbage. Yeah, this is a XNews bug that will not be fixed.



Deep into the subthread: since the field is named References:, then expect to carry more than one ID. Posts may get lost, be late, never arrive or expire (is the sender flags them with the Expire:<date> field) so the reference to a single message can easily get lost and break the thread: better refer up to last N messages (RFC 1036 suggest "[...] a reasonable number of backwards references." but gives no other clue: usually N is from 5 to 10, according to newsreader's settings).
In next image the References: field contains 8 IDs but the the screenshot shows only the three most recent ones:



If you want to dig a bit into the newsgroups world, then read the RFC 1036: despite being dated Dec 1987, it's still the official standard for Usenet messages and replaced the much older RFC 850. I didn't joke by stating that Usenet is substantially the same since 20 years and that a new message standard would break backward compatibility with any existing newsreader in any OS: it's the bare truth.

Just a note: the same Message-ID and References system is used for normal emails too: after all, newsgroup posts are little more than threaded emails
If someone points out you shouldn't post a new message by replying to an old one and changing both Subject and content, now you know why it got noticed BTW you even learn this person reads its correspondence with a threaded mail client set in Tree view mode ...

Zandrax

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

thanks, i love you!

so the references field is the key:

The purpose of the "References" header is to allow messages to be grouped into conversations by the user interface program. This allows conversations within a newsgroup to be kept together, and potentially users might shut off entire conversations without unsubscribing to a newsgroup. User interfaces need not make use of this header, but all automatically generated follow-ups should generate the "References" line for the benefit of systems that do use it, and manually generated follow-ups (e.g., typed in well after the original message has been printed by the machine) should be encouraged to include them as well.

http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc1036/rfc1036.html

ie the newsreader knows exactly what's it replying to(which post) and then references it (posts it in its header, among other things).
so if we initially have 3 different posts, and everybody else (after that) is replying to those 3, we'll have 3 "main" references upon which other answers will be "stacked".
if i got it correctly(?).

it's not really a long post, but the images take space.
i see you don't use cleartype, while resolution suggests you use lcd(?).
do you dislike cleartype as much as i do?
for me it just blurs the font. heh, it's kinda like misconvergnece on tvs...
http://picasaweb.google.hr/i4004b3/S...isConvergence#

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

thanks, i love you!

[joke] Sssst, don't mention it: my girlfriend would be jealous [/joke]

so if we initially have 3 different posts, and everybody else (after that) is replying to those 3, we'll have 3 "main" references upon which other answers will be "stacked".
if i got it correctly(?).

That's right: references refers to the path between the first message and your reply so messages following the same path or "subthread" can be stacked together.

i see you don't use cleartype, while resolution suggests you use lcd(?).
do you dislike cleartype as much as i do?

My notebook's lcd screen is an average 1280x800 15", but I resize most programs to roughly 1024x750 because I find difficult to work or read a page on a widescreen window.
I don't really dislike Cleartype or any lcd oriented antialiasing: simply it's an additional workload on the cpu (albeit small for any current processor) and I want the interface to be as reactive as possible. I changed to standard 2000 theme, disabled all animations and shut off even Cleartype. Moreover I found it to be more effective with medium or high sized fonts (from 10 points upwards) while it may really blur small ones and most of my programs use small fonts for menus and commands.
Anyway the global Cleartype blurriness (not the small font one) is due to inadequate default values of subpixel hinting parameters: with ClearType Tweaker (one of MS Powertoys) you can change them, mainly the contrast (text looks better with values around 1-1.1 on most lcds, but default value is 1.4).

for me it just blurs the font. heh, it's kinda like misconvergnece on tvs...
http://picasaweb.google.hr/i4004b3/S...isConvergence#

[OT]Really bad misconvergence: my father's 29" Triniton shows a similar red shadow since about a year, but I don't know how to solve it (maybe by rotating the Screen control on the line transformer?). Another issue is color balancing: red is too much saturated. According to the manual you can change color balancing in the service menu which is called by switching on the tv and pressing both Program "+" and "-" keys on the front panel at the same time: no harder how I tried, I never succeded in calling the service menu ... [/OT]

Zandrax

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

[joke] Sssst, don't mention it: my girlfriend would be jealous [/joke]

i love her too!
hehe...

Anyway the global Cleartype blurriness (not the small font one) is due to inadequate default values of subpixel hinting parameters: with ClearType Tweaker (one of MS Powertoys) you can change them, mainly the contrast (text looks better with values around 1-1.1 on most lcds, but default value is 1.4).

the thing about c.type is this: i know exactly how it works, and knowing that i know there's not a way in a million years it can be sharper than text without it.
now, sure some fonts may look silly without smoothing(esp. in pdf files...but i keep text smoothing off there too!), but that's not the problem of system, just pick font that looks ok.

you just cannot increase sharpness if you add rgb pixels on letters' edges. it boils down to that.

[OT]Really bad misconvergence: my father's 29" Triniton shows a similar red shadow since about a year, but I don't know how to solve it (maybe by rotating the Screen control on the line transformer?). Another issue is color balancing: red is too much saturated. According to the manual you can change color balancing in the service menu which is called by switching on the tv and pressing both Program "+" and "-" keys on the front panel at the same time: no harder how I tried, I never succeded in calling the service menu ... [/OT]

it's the tube!
red gun is driven by higher voltage than g and b(because red phosphor they use is less sensitive, so they need more electrons to hit it to have same brightness as g and b on lower beam current), so it seems it's eaten faster, result being poor control of red gun(images intermittantly getting too red, convergence craps out, like i've shown).
my tv is 8 years old, and it has these symptoms some years back.
not a very good quality tubes at all. and it seems later(so last crts sony made) are even worse than this, lasting only few years...

otoh videocolor(in my panasonic set...13 years) still looks excellent.
btw. videocolor is italian company...
if i was there i would probably visit them to see if i can find backup crt somehwere in their disty storages....hehe...

only solution is to dump it and get better quality tv-set...prefferably with videocolor tube in it...
from old tubes toshiba was famous for it's longevitiy...i have old amiga monitor with toshiba in it, and it looks excellent.

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

you just cannot increase sharpness if you add rgb pixels on letters' edges. it boils down to that.

Unsure if it's true or not, I trust you. When you sadly realize antialiasing is useful only for limited resolution screens (most lcds are 96 dpi), then you ask yourself why you didn't buy an higher res one

it's the tube!
red gun is driven by higher voltage than g and b(because red phosphor they use is less sensitive, so they need more electrons to hit it to have same brightness as g and b on lower beam current), so it seems it's eaten faster, result being poor control of red gun(images intermittantly getting too red, convergence craps out, like i've shown).

Crap! Nothing I can do - except replacing the tube or the tv ...

my tv is 8 years old, and it has these symptoms some years back.
not a very good quality tubes at all. and it seems later(so last crts sony made) are even worse than this, lasting only few years...

My father's Sony is a KV-29FX30E dated 2003: I heard of spanish Trinitons' quality being lower than japanese ones, but I never fully understood its meaning. A tube misconverging after 4 years isn't a good one to me.

otoh videocolor(in my panasonic set...13 years) still looks excellent.
btw. videocolor is italian company...
if i was there i would probably visit them to see if i can find backup crt somehwere in their disty storages....hehe...

You don't have to: Videocon bought Videocolor from Thomson in 2005, moved its crt production to India and still sells them. Videocolor changed name into VCD Technologies and now manifactures LCD, plasma and OLED screens; apparently the Thomson lab in a near town is still researching on tubes, but I suspect the site is simply outdated.

Apart Panasonic, Toshiba and Videocolor based screens, do you know anything about Philips tubes? Italian tv manifacturer Mivar has employed them since the beginning and there are still a few new Mivar CRTs in shops. New products will be only lcd ones, based on Samsung panels.

Zandrax

[i4004]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

i think the trend is that tubes are getting crappier...outsourcing manufacturing to china, then using lower quality materials etc.

philips? have one older model at my brother's place(which he took from my aunt) which is from early 90s or lat 80s...and tube is still in ok condition...not mint, it started to have blurryness(it also has vertical IC problem
http://bbsrv.wks.gorlaeus.net/~i4004...nimation10.gif
so i hesitate to fix it because image is not that sharp...), but heck...it did well for more than 15 years, and that's pretty good.

recently i was fixing this
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5525
and it has lithuanian (philips) tube(or was it esthonian?huh).
i don't think that will last long...

i'm reading some tv repair forum, and they mention philips a66 tubes as good, but i dunno how old is that and if it's still being mfr-ed..probably not...

best way to judge is to watch some older sets of same kind: is image blurry?
are some colors blurry while others are not? (check this on teletext)
are high contrast edges spilling once you increase the contrast?
is video too dim?
if anything from that happens it suggests tube is dying.
coupled with tv age you should be able to judge if those sets are any good.
perhaps if you buy two you can achieve 10 years combined lifetime(?)
<wink>

[zandrax]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

i think the trend is that tubes are getting crappier...outsourcing manufacturing to china, then using lower quality materials etc.

I agree: nowadays CRTs are manifactured in Korea, Turkey, India, China and maybe a few other nations. Most low end crts sold in Italy are turkish and exibit problems a few months after the warranty has expired

i'm reading some tv repair forum, and they mention philips a66 tubes as good, but i dunno how old is that and if it's still being mfr-ed..probably not...

I should open the 14" Mivar in the bedroom and check the tube name on the label because I don't remember it. Anyway Mivar employs (or employed?) spanish made Philips tubes.

perhaps if you buy two you can achieve 10 years combined lifetime(?)
<wink>

Better only one good that two mediocre ones. Moreover I don't know where I should store the second

Zandrax

[Wizard]

Re: Obscure SMTP Bug #101

This trend begun long ago.

The CRT for monitor and TVs didn't have the life like it used to be by 2000, by 2004, it's all gone to pot. This was when I had to replace my Oct 2004 samsung 17" in march 2007 with samsung 19" LCD.

Cheers, Wizard