Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

[kc8adu]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

and folks think i am nuts for the mods i make!
i increased overclock on several boards by bumping up capacitance and lowering esr.
adding tants and mlcc helped too.
apply the mlcc as near the cpu vcore pins as you can.that means tacking between socket pins on the back of the board.

[willawake]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

it is soddemfx who put this in the mind of trodas

[trodas]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

willawake - you got it right - I will never be happy about the OC I reach : But the caps could help a bit there... so :
It is like improving the stability at high clock :

kc8adu - hehe, you aren't alone But about soldering the caps - well, the pins are IMHO a bit extreme idea. I also then need the 0860 package and not 1206/1210 packages. While this aren't a problem, the problem rely in the fact that I don't want to go as extreme.
All I want is put caps, where the designer of the board thought that they are wise to be, yet later marketing folks decided that they aren't as important, so let's remove them for cost optimizing...
As you can see on pic there:
http://ax2.old-cans.com/s.php?p=badt...3&c=8&d=1&v=v2
This is the back of CPU socket on DFI LP B mobo. There are four (the fourth is hidden by the cap) places where caps should be and they aren't there. The cap C10C13 has 5.3uF capacity and probably about 6.3 - 10V. The lower voltage the better (I assume that for the cap specs is roughly valid the same thing as with electrolyte caps - the voltage on them has to be the nominal voltage of the cap, so the specs are valid - if the voltage is significately lower, the specs will be significately worser - with is the last think anyone want, right?), I'm not going to push 5V into Vcore - the CPU can't make it anyway.

Same four caps are missing inside the CPU socket.

I'm about to put them back in - just if I get hold on them, the minute I solder them and we see if the board will work again, hehe :


willawake - actually, I had this ideas years before I meet SoddemFX - and your pic won't work, telling me something about privilegies - so you posted this into the moderator only area, ot Topcat messed with the config too much again? :
And I also wish to mention that my mods should remain "civilized" and the mobo almost stock-looking with the exception of bigger caps sizes and more of them. And yep, probably with one exception - the ram-filtering caps get additional caps soldered from bottom, as FSB is the key for speed, and therefore I willing to do almost everything for it - and these two suxxkas are right into the line of AGP card. It won't matter much with just GF2 card for overclocking/folding, however it does matter a lot with 6800GT watercooler card - significately bigger caps simply won't fit in there

[willawake]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

here is some more inspiration for you trodas

http://www.finetune.jp/~lyuka/interests/pc/p4c800e.html
http://www.finetune.jp/~lyuka/interests/pc/bp6.html

[trodas]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

Dear willawake, you should not provocate me
Yep, these add-ons looking very clean done (just as I like it) and using professional stuff, just like I love When showing there up the al-polymer caps, anyone got any idead what their specs are? I mean - let's compare their specs to the Rubycons MCZ, Nichicons HZ or Samxon GA (when awailable) to see how good they are.
Got any specs of this stuff?
And where to buy them? :

I just being ineresed. They mostly looks so small, so the max. capacity is probably not suitable for the big Vcore caps, however some smaler ones might be worth replacing with them, if the specs are good and dimensions fit

How good are about 1000uF 10V and 470-560uF for 6.3V one? (such as the caps no. 35 to 37 on pic bellow, witch are bellow the GFX card and therefore has to be small... and I have to add big ones from the back...)

So my final idea (after discovering how bad the other that Chemi-con caps on the DFI LP B mobos are) of recapping the mobo looking like this:



As you can see, pretty much all bigger caps get replaced.
Caps 1 - 5 was 3300uF 6.3V Chemi-con KZG ones, but now there are better the Panasonic FM ones with 4700uF 6.3V.
Caps 6 - 8 was 1500uF 16V KZG ones as well, replaced by 2200uF 16V Panasonic FM ones.
Capacitor 9 was 1000uF 10V OST crap, now there are 2200uF 16V Panasonic FM one, as Last Viking recommended high capacity there.
Empty space 10 recieved 470uF cap.
Empty space 11 seems blockin when fited with 470uF one the start of ram-controlles, so ATM remaining empty, I might try it once again to be sure...
Empty spaces 12 - 24 recieved 120uF 16V Panasonic FM caps, with the exception of space 13 and 18 in witch case I'm not sure, so later...

And todays I started dumping the OST crap out of my mobo, four pieces of 470uF 16V (25 - 28) get replaced for the Panasonic ones, because the mobo like hang in the evening (when get heated because folding all the day - tomorrow we see) and I did not like this at all. When you look at the picture, it seems that they are into sensitive areas as well, so it might help. Two are right up to the cap 1 and cap 6 - I quessing powering of the onboard NIC and USB, witch is important. The third one is just on the right top AGP slot corner, close to the coil. This could be important cap as well, OST has no place there - filtering some of the AGP voltages proably? And fourth one is at the bottom of the mobo, right next to the yellow USB ports and next to the hole. Filtering USB voltage might not be the most important thing, however the crap has to get off from my mobo and I had some USB problems right before the "big bang", so it has to get off...

Now is pissing me only the four 220uF 10V craps (close and between the ram slots - 40 to 43), next six 1000uF 6.3V around the ram slots and stuff (29 - 34) and the ram's powering by 2x 1000uF 10V (36 and 37) + 470uF 6.3V - 35. This one is going to get replaced by 560uF one. And yes, exactly these two, where Last Viking recommend to add two 2200uF caps from the bottom side to these ones, as you can see on his pic.
And so I will add these! :

Now there is missing only eight empty space pieces for 10uF 16V polymer caps, where I will add 10uF 16V ceramic ones (ceramic is better in specs even that polymer, I suppose, right?) and another eight pieces of 5.6uF ones. Half of them are missing in and half bellow the CPU socket, where I will add hi-quality 4.7uF 10V Taiyo Yuden caps.
(sadly they did not have 5.6uF or 4.7uF for less that 10V - 6.3 or even 4V are much better choice there, as the Vcore are nowhere near 11V...)

And oh well, I almost forget that caps 1 - 10 and 36 + 37 will be bypassed by 100nF 16V filtering SMD caps from the bottom side of the mobo for better filtration and getting rid of as much noise, as possible :

Now only get hold on the caps, finally!

[trodas]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

I have a question. I finally understand the packaging and stuff with the ceramic SMD caps, it is fairly easy, like:

1206/1210 is 3,2mm long and 1,6mm width piece
0805 size is 2mm long and 1,25mm width
0603 size is 1,6mm long and 0,8mm width
0402 size is 1mm long and 0,5mm width
0201 size is 0,5mm long and 0,3mm width

However what are labeled classic ceramic disc capacitors, like these:



...but not for such extreme voltages and I did not managed to find any lower (normal) voltage Panasonic ones?!

I would definitively love to know, as maybe is possible find in such casings:

...even biger capacitances like 4.7uF and 22uF 16V ones I got a DEVIL's idea, so, pls, a little help?


PS. or any good (mean low ESR/ESL) tips for Tantalum caps?

[Spacedye69]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

Trodas is my HERO!!!!!!

[arneson]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

Oh my god I've got a head acke.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

trodas, don't forget that the advantage of SMT MLCCs is the inherent low inductance (and ESR) of the package. The leads of a disc ceramic cap could easily add 10 or 20 nH of inductance, which is 12.5-25 milliohms of inductive reactance at 200KHz (2*Pi*F*L). That will limit the part's ability to respong to fast transient currents. Also, some disc ceramics have fairly high ESR.

[trodas]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

This is not for the mobo, but I thinking about replacing the Jamicons on the X-Fi Fatal1ty with something I can trust. And compared to electrolytes - there has to be tantalum or ceramic caps witch will have superior characteristic to even best electrolytes - not to mention Jamicons
So, that was my point, hehe. I'm far from soldering anything with long legs on mainboard, that will be contra-productive and even LastViking get away with it, I still strongly believe that if he used Rubycons MCZ, Nichicons HZ or Samxons GA, he could touched the 300Mhz FSB limit and not "only" 297 (he should also exchange the caps around the dimms and Vdd powering, tough, that is what I'm about to do pretty soon, as soon, as the cursed post deliver the last 6 cursed caps... )

[trodas]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

All I managed to find ATM is Tantalum Panasonic 4.7uF 16V cap, Digi-Key part number P2036-ND and manufacture part number ECS-F1CE475K - but from the search there:
http://catalog.panasonic.com/pic/par...r=ECS-F1CE475K
I did not get any link to any pdf specs documentation, nothing.
Any help, pls?
Or suggestions?
Nichicon made only SMD Tantalum caps, ugh. And can't find any nice ceramic ones as well...

[trodas]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

Well, todays I have different question to answer.

Ceramic caps are good for filtering the hi-frequency ripple spikes, that is for sure. Now one can buy even 100uF 6.3V ceramic Tayo Yuden caps Tough 3.9$ for one, but what the hell...

587-1397-1-ND and Y5D type, so nothing fancy, -20%, +80% capacitance and size 1210 - 3.2mm long and 1.6mm wide piece.

The question is - can THIS 100uF ceramic cap filter out the hi-frequency spikes that is usualy filtered out by 47 - 100nF ceramic caps, or should I bridge it with 47 - 100nF cap for better results?

I mean - will be the results worth or not?


Bottom line is, that I noticed that in the Enermax Liberty 620W PSU is many ceramic output caps omited and therefore I looking to fix that. 100uF 6.3V sounds about right to filter out the 3.3V and 5V lines, and 47uF 16V ones are suitable for 12V lines
At http://digi-key.com - 587-1436-1-ND - 47uF 16V Tayo Yuden X5R one, also 1210 type.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Ceramic SMD caps for filtering

For the o/p of an psu, this will be for shure greate. Due to the large inductance of the wirres, in psu`s the transients aren`t that fast IMHO.
The main benefit will be reduced ripple current and may be better regulation.
Those caps would be good for some many phase and high frequency vrm units. And to provide a faster transient response near cpu`s it would be a good thing too.