emachine e725 freezes randomly

[ratdude747]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

"But a good programmer could put more instructions in one 'word'." = "you can say more things which in some cases allow using fewer words"

Which validates what I said here..
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...1&postcount=33
.

you are right it does, but this only works for things only written for x64.

windows has both x32 and x64 versions. going back to my example, say we had a program in 4 bit:

000ilike00my0rod

and in 8 bit:

0000000i0000like000000my00000rod

and upon releasing it as a product, we find out it mistaken as saying something to do with "willy". to fix it, we change it to :

000ilike00myiron0rod
0000000i0000like000000my0000iron00000rod

had we taken advantage of the 8 bit words, we would have 2 completely different codes to manage (one issue would not be the same in the other). in addition, it is much easier and more reliable to use old proven code rather than starting from scratch. you wonder why microsoft copyrights on operating systems mention years long ago (or use a range)? thats because they used old code from then since it was not worth the effort to rewrite that.

think about it, for some things , is it worth all of the code writing, R/D, and bugfixing to rewrite some things? even though they had DOHC engines a long time ago (the offy engine), why did OHV stay a standard for so long? it was not economical to reinvent the wheel (or the engine) when OHV got the job done just fine. it was not until there was enough of an advantage that OHC designs hit consumer vehicles. x64 is the same way, for a lot of operating system things, you may be faster, yes, but the gain would be so little that all of the resources needed to make it work at the same reliability rate would be too much trouble.

a good example would be vistrash. look how bad it was... with such a large overhaul, look how much time and energy it took just to fix things (sp1 and sp2). it would have been less powerful but more reliable if they kept the xp base. as seen, xp did what most needed done, the advantages of vista were of little benefit to most.

make sense at all?

edits to address the latest post:

you do get that part. what you are missing is that by writing stuff to be 64 bits but using mostly 32 bit instructions, you are allowing things that DO use 64 bit instructions to run... things like games, CAD programs, graphics apps, etc.

also, it will run slower x64 because all of the 0's need to go somewhere, so they hog up the RAM. or go to the paging file.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

And we have already agreed that 1GB is not enough to run Windows 7. So, the point is?

The point is if Win7 32-bit will run [albeit slow] on 1GB then so will Win7 64-bit [albeit slow].
-
Beyond that, yes we did agree on that. So why you jumping on me when I was expressing that same idea to SOMEONE ELSE?

i didn't buy my RAM to have it sitting idle.

If you have more than 4Gb it probably is idle most of the time.
[For the average typical PC user I'd say 2Gb.]


And I stand by what I said...
The average typical PC user will never NEED more than 32-bit.
.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

The main point remains: We have cluttered the OP's topic with trash that does not belong here and does not answer any of his questions. And i still run 64-bit whether you like it or not. If 64-bit capability is something you have already, why throw it away ffs? Okay, 64 bit uses twice the memory. Booooooo. But a 64-bit instruction can now execute in a single clock cycle as opposed to two if the processor was running in 32-bit mode. Yay. You have to face it: From a $$$ standpoint more RAM is much cheaper than faster CPU.

PS. Doing 16-bit math in ASM on a 8-bit PIC micro. Not funny.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

I'm not sure you are aware of it, but you can still directly address 32, 16, and even 8 bit registers on a 64 bit CPU. You use as many bits as you need. Just because a variable CAN be 64 bits in length, it doesn't mean that it WILL be. Look up some x86 ASM and you will understand.

@ PCBONEZ: If ratdude747 was right on this one then there would have been no reason to progress past the original 8088 (8 bits) and 8086 (16 bits). Heck, maybe we should be all browsing the internet on PICs and ATMELs. Look, they even got 16 and 32 bit ones. Besides, i didn't buy my RAM to have it sitting idle. And it's a fact that x64 runs better on 2GB and up than 32-bit.

Imagine that...

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

"But a good programmer could put more instructions in one 'word'." = "you can say more things which in some cases allow using fewer words"

Which validates what I said here..
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...1&postcount=33
.

[ratdude747]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

But a good programmer could put more instructions in one 'word'.
.

By your theory 2GB/32-bit = 4GB/64-bit because of the # of 'words' in the code.
If that's true a 32-bit system with 4GB RAM will perform the same as a 64-bit system with 8Gb RAM.
Is that what you're saying?
...

edit for unique- unused bits become zeroes, see below

it will use the same % of memory.

do you program? from my understading in my DE class in high school, the word size has more to do with additional instructions and value sizes. perhaps my knowedge is skewed, but you cannot exactly cram more instructions into a word, you just have more words you can use.

example:

say you could only write words 4 letters (bits) long. ok, you can curse all you want but you are limited to that specific list of words no longer than 4 letters. any unused places in a word are nulled out by a "0". in a way this is a 4 bit system.

the instruction set is like a dictionary here (defining what means what, so we know 0dog = domesticated canine that eats its own poo).... so you could say things like:

00I like food

0you 0are nice

debt 00is 0gay

but then you want longer words and more words. so we go to an 8 letter system.

since we want to use the same words a s before (old words still mean the same thing) and just ADD to it, it will be like using x86-64. itanium would be like changing and re-defining all of the words, so "00000dog" now = feline that poos in a box of sand and says LOL in a lot of pictures (a cat).

the above would be :

0000000i 0000like 0000food

00000you 00000are 0000nice

0000debt 000000is 00000gay

but we now can say things like:

0000000i 0000love 000000my joystick

00topcat 00000has 0000nice vehicles

if you ignore the spaces, the old 4-word things become double the length:

000ilikefood
0000000i0000like0000food
0you0arenice
00000you00000are0000nice
debt00is0gay
0000debt000000is00000gay

and if the space needed is equivalent to memory, then moving to 64 bit doubles the memory, but you can say more things which in some cases allow using fewer words (in stead of 00up0anddown , you say diagonal). however, with the complexity of an operating system, adding 4 zeros to everything is a lot faster and easier to manage (fixing bugs) then optimizing by using the new words 100% of the time.

0000000i0000hope0000this000clears00things0000000up

(i looked it up, x86-64's legacy mode works like this)

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

hello?

64 bit by itself ALWAYS takes twice the ram. double the word size since everything is 64 bits, not 32 bits.

I'm not sure you are aware of it, but you can still directly address 32, 16, and even 8 bit registers on a 64 bit CPU. You use as many bits as you need. Just because a variable CAN be 64 bits in length, it doesn't mean that it WILL be. Look up some x86 ASM and you will understand.

@ PCBONEZ: If ratdude747 was right on this one then there would have been no reason to progress past the original 8088 (8 bits) and 8086 (16 bits). Heck, maybe we should be all browsing the internet on PICs and ATMELs. Look, they even got 16 and 32 bit ones. Besides, i didn't buy my RAM to have it sitting idle. And it's a fact that x64 runs better on 2GB and up than 32-bit. And we have already agreed that 1GB is not enough to run Windows 7. So, the point is?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

But a good programmer could put more instructions in one 'word'.
.

By your theory 2GB/32-bit = 4GB/64-bit because of the # of 'words' in the code.
If that's true a 32-bit system with 2GB RAM will perform the same as a 64-bit system with 4Gb RAM.
Is that what you're saying?
...

So, spending twice the $ on RAM to use 64-bit nets zero performance gain?
Is that what you're saying?
...

Are you paying attention Th3_uN1Qu3? - Because I think RD has a point..
.

To flip it.
A 64-bit system w/4GB will have memory performance approx 1/2 as good as a 32-bit system with 4Gb.
- Because the 32-bit system can hold more 'words' in RAM.
.

[ratdude747]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

You're the warmest yet but not right unless that first line was sarcasm.
.

hello?

64 bit by itself ALWAYS takes twice the ram. double the word size since everything is 64 bits, not 32 bits.

64 bits has performance increase, yes, but the fact you are in a 64 bit world means you will use double the ram.

doesn't matter how bloated the drivers and whatever are. double is double. what you are saying makes no sense. a 0 still takes up memory. the only way what you said would work would be if you ran out of memory, in that case, you are hitting the page file either way, but 64 bit will hit it a LOT more.

if 64 bit let you write code that was over twice as small (using 64 bit instructions), then it would use the same or less... but taking something and doing a direct conversion will always double the required memory.




the microsoft bit was discussed in the posts before this.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

So obviously what they had last year didn't work and they went right out of business.
- It's a WANT, not a need.

[pfrcom]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

Is that a *need* -> Not really.
And what % of the servers in the world do that?
.

The ones where the business using them are constantly demanding faster performance

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

It takes x-amount of RAM to run a LAN chip, x-amount of RAM to run a Sound chip, x-amount of RAM to run every other chip.
Barring sloppy and/or bloated drivers that [x-amount] doesn't change from 32->64 bit.
Regardless of the 'bits' if you start with 2GB you have the same amount of RAM left for the user regardless if it's 32 or 64 bit.
And: regardless of the 'bits' if you start with 1GB you have the same amount of RAM left for the user regardless if it's 32 or 64 bit.
-
So MS saying 1GB for 32-bit and 2GB for 64-bit is nothing but marketing bull shit.
.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

Since i have no idea what the original question was, i'll just provide my best guess of an answer: Two 32 bit values still take the same memory space as one 64-bit.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

yeah... since 64 bit always takes double the ram... which cancels the 2/2 microsoft skew...

rule #1: minimum hardware requirements are a lie 99.99999...% of the time.

You're the warmest yet but not right unless that first line was sarcasm.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

Now somebody will chime in and mention PAE.

Anyone that knows what PAE is good for wouldn't because they'd know it's irrelevant.
.
You haven't answered the question.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

Depends on the server

We're migrating to Itanium servers, and DBAs want to try having an Oracle database in memory

Can't do that with a 32-bit memory limit

Is that a *need* -> Not really.
And what % of the servers in the world do that?
.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

Can't do that with a 32-bit memory limit

Now somebody will chime in and mention PAE.

[pfrcom]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

[Not counting servers, most of which don't need 64-bit either...]

Depends on the server

We're migrating to Itanium servers, and DBAs want to try having an Oracle database in memory

Can't do that with a 32-bit memory limit

[ratdude747]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

Because it's the same system.

yeah... since 64 bit always takes double the ram... which cancels the 2/2 microsoft skew...

rule #1: minimum hardware requirements are a lie 99.99999...% of the time.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: emachine e725 freezes randomly

ALL of that could be done just fine in Win98 or W2K were it not for the WinTel planned obsolescence program.

Win98 had a metric ton of bugs. I still have a computer that runs Win98 to this day but that doesn't make me love it any more than i did back when i was a little kid who cried for his daddy whenever he broke his computer. Win98 still sucks for most serious intents and purposes. Heck, it even fails at surfing the 'net nowadays. Win2k had less bugs, but had a fair bunch of usability quirks instead.

True, but that wasn't the question.
Takes 2GB [2x what MS says] to run Win7 32-bit -> well.
Why is it the same 2GB in the 64-bit?
.

Because it's the same system.