bad caps or power supply?

[kaniki]

I got a board here that i wanted to get up and working. It is a 1st mainboard brand or something like that.. model AZ11.. I know that it has some bad caps... 11 to be exact.. all from a brand on the list of bad manufacturers.. choyo brand if you need to know.. all are 2200uf 10v caps.. and all are getting bloated just like i feel after thanksgiving dinner.. 2 are even leaking.. The PC has froze up a few times after being on a bit.. I know bad caps can do that and was looking into replacing them..

My question is, I ran Everest on it (newer version of aida32) and when i started watching the voltage from the power supply, it was saying that the +12v rail was running at 15.29v I have seen computers that ran the 12v rail at around 13v with no problems, but could the bad caps on the board be causing the 15v reading or is it more like a bad sensor or power supply? almost all the readings are a little high on the utility, but the 12v one is the worst.. 2.5v is 3.04, 3.3v is 3.17, 5v is 6.31 and 12v is reading 15.29. the readings do very little fluctuating like when a power supply goes bad and the PC does not reboot, just freezes and only freezes after being on a bit. also, you can not check the power through the bios.. no setting to check in there for power, only fans.. that is why i checked with everest.

I hate to give up on the PC. it is a decent little PC.. 1 gig processor, 1.5 gigs of ram, 2 roms (1 burner and 1 DVD rom), sound blaster 5.1 sound card, d-link 530tx+ network and a g-force 5200 vid card. power supply is a 300 watt.

I am going to replace the caps, but have never seen a power supply with such high readings and was wondering if anyone else has run into that too?

thanks

[ratdude747]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

the bad caps can give false readings. replace ALL bad brand caps on it!

what brand (seriesif applicable) power supply are you using?

some brands are gutless and not even safe...

[tj2]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

Use a digital voltmeter to check the output voltages on the power supply after you replace the bad caps on the motherboard. Power supplies can go bad too. You can find the pinout of the ATX connector on line in many places, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

1st mainboard is aka FIC.
Usually good boards after a recap.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

FIC *used* to by one of my favorite brands until they started OEM'ing to E-Machines and got cheap with their own retail boards in the process.

Still have 3 'pet' FIC boards.
-
PIO-3 w/ [From first system I ever built ground up.]
486 board but takes AMD-X5-133ADZ which is what I have.
Parked in a box.
-
VA-503+ [had several, kept 1]
Super 7 - Used the AMD K6-2 500Mhz option myself.
Parked in a box.
-
FR33-E [Have 3 versions] - uATX w/1 ISA, 1.4Ghz P3T-S, 1Gb RAM [2x 512Mb PC133]
There is an error in the CPU list. Last BIOS versions take 1.4Ghz P3-S without issue.
Fastest non-server [non-dual CPU] P3 boards I have.
Collected them back when the only [easily] Linux compatible modems needed an ISA slot.
Anymore I just use them as testbeds for PCI & ISA cards or older drives.

~~~

There are three versions of your board [AZ11, AZ11e, AZ11ea] so make sure you get the right stuff.

FIC's HTTP website is a pain. - No link to search function.
They also make some OEM boards that aren't always on their sites at all.

Here is the page you need to find anything:
http://www.fic.com.tw/download/other_products.aspx


They also have an FTP site where you can probably find everything you need.

- They distrubte drivers primarily by way of the full CD that shipped with the boards
- Each covers a number of different models.
- This one covers all three variations of your board.
ftp://ftp.fic.com.tw/motherboard/dri...ilities_v1.27/
What I do is download the CD then update all the drivers on it to the latest versions before I burn it.

- manuals
ftp://ftp.fic.com.tw/motherboard/manual/socketa/

- CPU vs BIOS List




- BIOS
ftp://ftp.fic.com.tw/motherboard/bios/socketa/

- misc drivers/utilities
ftp://ftp.fic.com.tw/motherboard/driver/misc/utilities/

.

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

I was planning on replacing all of that brands caps.. there are only 11 and all are bad.. i thought that the bad caps might have given a bad reading but was not sure.. that is why i asked.. guess ill find out after i get some new caps and get them installed. I have replaced some bad caps on boards before, but usually do that before they have problems. This board i got from a friend, got it installed in the pc and never really used it much since i got it. It froze up a few times and figured i would figure it out later.. that was before i started looking into and finding out about caps.. In other wards.. its been sitting around a few years..

thought that 1st went to FIC but was not sure.. as for the brand of the power supply.. not really sure.. it came in the case i bought.. ill replace the caps and run it with everest again and check the readings again..

As for the drivers and stuff. ill wait on those but thanks for the links.. I already had the newest manual so not needed there.. for what good it is at least.. found that there pin setup for front USB was incorrect.. they had the pin setup backwards.. Pos power is supposed to be pin 1. not ground.. makes me wonder what other mistakes they made in the manual..

The PC was running somewhat stable when my friend had the board so i doubt that the problem is needing a bios update.. and I checked, it does have the newest bios version.. He just got up and built a new PC one day and gave me the old board, ram, and processor. No explanation on if there was anything wrong either so it may be he started having the same problems and easier to just buy new..

Thanks for all the info...

[PCBONEZ]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

FIC stands for "First International Computer" which is how they get "1st Mainboard".
Just sort of a cocky marketing name.
.

[momaka]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

as for the brand of the power supply.. not really sure.. it came in the case i bought..

There should be a label on it, check what it says (name and model number). More often than not, however, those power supplies that come with the cases are total crap (but still, do check what brand it is and post it here).

Also, like tj2 said, use a digital multimeter/voltmeter to check the voltages. Motherboard sensors are almost always inaccurate.

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

yea.. i will check it out later.. Dont feel like taking the computer apart.. or should i say opening it up a dozen times.. I know how to check the brand of the power supply. The way i look at it for the power supply part.. i will check it when i take the pc apart to replace the caps.. I have a spare power supply here that is a dynex 400 watt dx-400wps here that is a spare.. i will put that one in if the one in it tests bad when i take it apart.. if it was something more then just checking the brand name on the power supply, then i would.. but like i said before.. i was just getting the PC up and working.. it is not my main pc, nor my only pc so it is just sitting there until i get some new caps.. but i can tell you one thing.. the case that it came in was a rosewill brand.. it looks almost exactly like the Rosewill R103A model.. but mine is a few years old and is grey or silver and black, not all black..

and before anyone sayd.. make sure you dont buy cheap or crappy caps.. the ones i am looking at are Rubycon MHZ 10V 2200UF LOW ESR... they have the rubycon MHZ, MBZ and YXA series. I asked the seller which were better and he said best to go with the MHZ series... unless someone knows something i dont.. then i figured i would go with those...

see.. im not a complete numbnuts.. just a partial one...

[kc8adu]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

use the mbz.
proven reliable.
the ultra low esr series on all mfrs are more fragile and sensitive to heat.

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

i actually have 2 questions if anyone can answer them... i just noticed that the caps both have notes that they both have short leads (5 mm lead pitch) on the mbz and mhz series. does anyone know if that will be any kind of problem when putting in or fitting in the motherboard? They should fit through the board and be able to be soldered with no problem? correct? sorry but any that i have ever worked with were all regular leads.. or ones that were about an inch long..

2nd question.. was to to use mbz.. proven reliability... i read this

"The MHZ series is Rubycon special new series.This is the same grade with Rubycon MCZ series.All these capacitors are brand new.

MCZ series has achieved lower ESR at high frequency from conventional MBZ series by approximately 40%. The series is recommended for VRM for higher speed CPU's.This is the Premium grade motherboard capacitor.The "MCZ" series, which employs a newly developed electrolyte and low resistance paper, are especially aimed for VRM of CPU with high clock frequency. As a higher clock frequency of CPU is required for improved PC performance the capacitors for VRM are required the following characteristics:

♦FEATURES
• 105ºc Ultra Low ESR for VRM.
• Enabled high ripple current by a reduction of ESR at high frequency range."

so is the mbz series still better then the mhz or is it that you have not used the mhz before.. iknow it says both are ultra low esr so it is not that one is much lower then the other in the esr area.. any ideas?

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

well. i guess you dont need to answer that now.. i got some caps ordered.. they are Rubycon MBZ 2200uF 10v 10mm. and are coming from about 2 hour drive from my house.. I ordered 20 of them.. cant hurt to have a few extras just in case.. thanks for the help all.. now lets just hope there are no other problems..

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

well.. I got the new caps in.. I got Rubycon MBZ 2200 Uf 10v caps.. and for some reason.. things work.. have not left it run long enough yet to make sure that it will not freeze up still, but so far.. signs are good.. So far, it has been loaded and rebooted 3 times and then run about 20 minutes.. not being used but on and so far no freezing. I found one thing out though.. thought that there was only 11 of the Choyo 22oouf caps.. i was wrong.. there was 12.. one did not look bad, but still replaced it.. thought that there was only 11 because the one row of 4, 3 were something like 3 mm from being flat on the board and since i knew that the 3 high ones were 2200's, i thought that the other one was not.. found out after i took the board out that i was wrong. also found that that 4th that was in all the way in that row was the only that looked fine.. Hmm.. 1 out of 12 isnt bad, is it???

I was asked about what power supply i had.. it is an "Austin dr-b300atx" 300 watt power supply.. according to everest, it still shows 15.29 on the +12v and 6.31v on the +5v... so pretty much no change there. in fast, they all still show the same. Not sure if it is a bad sensor, reading, or power supply.. check it later..

PS.. for the record, who eve was the one that designed this board was an idiot... they put one of those 2200 caps about 1/8" or like 2 or 3 mm away from where the heat sink is for the processor.. not to meantion that one of the soldered leads for one of those cps i replaced had something like 1mm spaceing between that and another soldered connecion.. not sure what it is but it is a circuit that sits flat of the board, is something like 2 mm wide, 2 mm high and 2 or 3 mm long.. little tiny thing.. and not fun soldering with 1 mm of space to spare..

any other thoughts or comments??

[momaka]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

I was asked about what power supply i had.. it is an "Austin dr-b300atx" 300 watt power supply..

That would be a Deer/Allied PSU (at least according to the model number).
Some of their units are ok, some aren't that great. They usually do okay in low-power systems such as PII/PIII and low-end P4. They do employ crappy caps, though, so it's probably not a bad idea to open it and check for bad caps (warning: PSU contains high voltages - turn it off before removing the lid and do not touch the heatsink near the two big primary caps). Post pictures if you can too. Some Deer/Allied PSUs are not worth recaping.
If all the caps look ok, at least see what brand and series they are and post them here. Some brands such as Rulycon (not to be confused with Rubycon, a top-grade capacitor) are total crap and should be replaced on sight.
You definitely don't want to leave bad caps in the PSU as that will overwork the new caps you installed on the motherboard, which may in turn shorten their life.

Congrats on fixing the board by the way .

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

the power supply has 2 big caps that are 470 uf 200v and are not sure about brand, but they have the symbol of like a planet with a ring around it and a Y in the middle, the others are koshin and luxon brand.. never heard of any of them before.. here is a couple pics i took.. sorry the pics are not that good... came from camera on my cell..

[i4004]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

>it still shows 15.29 on the +12v and 6.31v on the +5v... so pretty much no change there. in fast, they all still show the same. Not sure if it is a bad sensor, reading, or power supply.. check it later..

probably the sensor, but check it ASAP....
(also, it seems to me you have a rather crappy psu)

about rubycon series here's an interesting post
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...stry#post89576

i dunno why are they doing this (xperimenting with new chemistries etc.) when designers can just use polys if they want ultra low esr and durability.

i would stick with proven stuff, as kc says.

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

i started reading that when it first came out.. and then got glad that i bought what i did.. i was debating between the MBZ and the MHZ, which is supposed to be a spin off the MCZ series.. after i read that I was glad i went with the MBZ's.. also, the date code is 0701 so are not real old too..

for the test asap remark.. dont think i have a tester here to test the voltage and dont think i can buy one.. at least not christmas eve or day..

I took the power supply out to check it.. almost thought i broke it. plugged everything back in and tried turning it on, it kept rebooting... turned it off and killed the power, rechecked all the plugs, and is now working fine again.. I was just thinking, took just about the whole computer apart, all the work replacing 12 caps, and removing the power supply breaks it.. just my luck... but lucky for me, it must have been a loose connection..

for stats.. 1 gig AMD CPU, Nvidia 5200 vid card, 2 ROMs, 2 hard drives, floppy, 1 extra case fan, sound + network + USB cards. I think a 300 watt PSU should be fine for that.. so not maxing the PSU out real bad..

[kaniki]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

Thought i would give you an update. I finally got my power supply tester in to test the power supply. I got one of those that will tell the current actual voltage in the line. here are the results..

+5 is 5.1
+12 is 12.1
+3.3 is 3.3
5vsb is 5.0
-12 is 11.6

so as the results stated.. the sensor for the voltage for the power supply built in must be bad, misreading, or something..

[370forlife]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

Austin is rebranded deer. May be worth a recap, would have to see pics of the internals. Austin are generally the low-end of deer units.

[ratdude747]

Re: bad caps or power supply?

yikes! austin bad!