Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

[starfury1]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

well I'll let him answer for himself

but I think he was getting more at the nuts and bolts of ESR
were I hadn't and spoke more only in DC terms
Also the fact I hadn't really mentioned its on spec sheets @ frequency.

Were as I was more trying to stress the "effects" in real terms on caps, by using a DC (somewhat) model
(and trying to stay away from the nuts and bolts of it, as its somewhat complex subject)

We do have a few posts around here on it

anyway thats how I interpreted what he was saying

(how accurate it is and how well he explained it ..well anyone that puts 200 X 200 = 400 is not going to comment at this stage )

Cheers

[bgavin]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

That site also has the datasheets for most Rubycon Aluminium Electrolytics (didn't notice MBZ there, but there's the interesting 125c series ZT):

Download them before they vanish due to obsolescence...

I have a boatload of PDF on my library website. I have all bots blocked, to keep them out of the search engines.

dub-dub-dub bgavinsound [d0t] kom fwd-slash reference

Sorry about the Super Secret Encryption, but the DoD guys and other shitheads like to use my server for target practice. Some of you may be in blocked subnets... so sorry. Thank a hacker for that.

[davmax]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

Hi Starfury1,

Just hiding in other busy activity.

In my last post I did not identify what ESR is, so here goes.

I love the "nuts and bolts" phase you use re. ESR. It appears to me that this is appropriate in that ESR is determined by the construction of a capacitor ie whether wrapped foil or parallel plates, the lead dimensions and importantly the electrolyte or dielectric. All these "nuts and bolts" have capacitive, inductive and resistive components and the value of each component is assigned seperately. Clearly the capacitor has a large capacitive value that swamps small parasitic capacitance and ESR and ESL. ESR is small but significant in high current circuits and its magnitude varies over capacitor types eg a ceramic capacitor has the lowest dielectric loss and small size, creating a very low ESR. The polymer electro is better than the wet electro and so on. Dielectric loss does vary with frequency and I suspect that wet caps would be the worst.

[davmax]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

Here is a good little ESR reference: http://xtronics.com/reference/esr.htm

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

davmax,

To tell you the truth I'm not even sure what you said/asked.

My explaination was intended for people with no electronics back ground.
- ZERO intention of being 100% technically accurate.
- The BASIC CONCEPT is what I wanted to get across.

Most people understand DC but get lost with AC, RMS, frequencies, sine vs square wave an all of that. It's hard enough to explain just an AC ripple voltage 'floating' in a DC voltage without a bunch of drawings, let alone getting into math and equations.

Reactance is the property of resisting or impeding the flow of electrons in an AC circuit.
- It IS a heat loss.
- The unit for reactance is "ohms".
- We DO use it to get something that resembles DC so we can have sensible understandable numbers to plug into mathematic equations. If we didn't use it we'd have to calculate each point in time during the wave form indivually as DC values and then average them. (And I don't want to do it that way. Do you?)
-- Hence:
""trying to make the AC 'resistance' (properly 'reactance') equivalent to what the resistance would be if it was true pure DC.""
-> We make it equivelent to have a static number to use for calculations.

I was talking about capacitors and their characteristics as an isolated component.
- Not inductors or tuned circuits.

ESR = Equivalent Series RESISTANCE.
EQUIVALENT ~ RESISTANCE
It's units are also Ohms.
- It is not a capacitance. (Or part of one.)

More in depth than I wanted to get into:
----
ESR is the sum of in-phase AC resistance *at a specific frequency*. It includes resistance of the dielectric, plate material, electrolytic solution, and terminal leads. ESR behaves like a resistor in series with a capacitor (thus the name Equivalent Series Resistance).
---
Capacitive Reactance is the AC resistance *at a specific frequency* that is due to the voltage and current beig out of phase. Capacitive components in a circuit cause the voltage to lag the current.
[basically, liberally, don't get picky] --- Power = Volts x Current.
Since the Volts and Current are out of phase there is a power loss simply because they don't peak at the same time. (When one is at max the other isn't.)
The 'resistance' that would cause that amount of power loss is Reactance.

Like I said.
I'm not sure what you are asking... But I hope that answered it..
.

[Krankshaft]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

I had 1 Teapo 3300uf for the 12V rail in my Antec supply I recapped.

It was bulged so I guess its only happy in some PSUs.

The Antec supplies well I can only attest to my Truepower supply runs a bit hotter then other supplies I have. I believe this is due to lower fan rpm it makes the supply quieter but due to the heat the caps are put under more strain.

I'm running the supply in this PC now no more wierd reboots.

Thank you Panasonic FC series .

[999999999]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

Motherboard manufacturers have a need to shave as many cents off each part as possible in volume production. We don't have that limitation, the downtime, labor and shipping is at least multiple times as much cost as the few pennies difference between a moderately low ESR cap and a very low ESR cap.

There is no "the ESR/ripple the Mobo design engineer presumably intended to be there", the engineer would love for the ripple to be as low as possible but ultimately budget constraints cause a "it's good enoough to do the job and costs less" mindset among the beancounters - except beancounters aren't engineers and don't think so much about longer term use beyond a warranty period.

Go ahead and use the lower ESR caps, a repair should ideally not only seek to replace the failed part, but attempt to reduce the chance the same thing will happen again. For a few cents/cap, if the board is worth recapping at all you might as well put that extra $1 into it.

Whether cap X works ok in PSU Y powering system Z is of course 3 variables. System Z may need enough current in rapidly changing current scenarios othat PSU Y's other current limitations cause more ripple, or PSU Y's cooling (or restrictions in cooling by the case or ambient environment it's used in) may result in higher temp. PSU Y might even have a load resistor actually cemented to that cap heating it up even further.

Krankshaft has a good point, that lower fan rpm seems like a good idea only until you realize that all PSU manufacturers could have as easily chosen a lower RPM fan (or more aggressive fan throttling control circuit) too, but didn't for longevity reasons (or budget reasons, that to achieve long life with lower airflow costs more to build).

[Phenos]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

Maybe an interresting datasheet from Yageo, I think yageo is the same as teapo. (Correct if wrong)

Yageo Datasheet

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

>>Quote<<
>> Motherboard manufacturers "have a need to" shave as many cents off each part as possible in volume production. <<

-- That strategy is short sighted, simple minded, corporate level stupidity.
(At least when it comes to capacitors. The "suits" see it work with other things in manufacturing and they try to apply the principle to caps. THAT DOESN'T WORK!)

-- That strategy with caps will cost the company MORE.
-- When the product consistently fails it creates a bad Reputation for the company.
-- Eventually you can't sell the product because people know you have crappy caps (or for the less informed general public they just "heard" the product is "bad" and they are "afraid" to it).
-- Yeah, the Suits saved $2 on caps but they had to drop the price $15 to get anyone to buy it.

---- An example.
- Soyo actually built awesome motherboards but you'd never know it unless you've recapped a few and used them with good caps. They are solid, stable, good performance but ONLY IF you recap them. (Every bit as good as (or better than) Asus, Intel, Abit, and the likes in my humble opinion.).
- Their problem was they consistently used cheap caps with a short life span and even a high failure rate right out of the box.
- They wouldn't change their ways. (Corporate level morons in control).
- They got a bad name.
- They couldn't sell their products. (Remember all those Soyo rebates a while back?)
- They are now out of the motherboard business.
- If Soyo had used good caps in the first place they'd be (or could be) giving Asus a serious run for their money right about now.

My two cents. (Or is that bits here? Or bytes?)
Most MSI, Abit, Epox, Asus, and Soyo boards are great boards IF they have good caps on them. The "bad name" these manufactures (or specific model boards) have is usually EARNED by using cheap parts in the assembly process on an otherwise good design.

- YES, Asus uses crap caps too.
- One of the companies that STILL uses crap caps.
(Asus is a pet peive of mine.)
- They built up a reputation for great products back in the 1990's. (And they were great products THEN.) - But now they are pulling the same el-cheapo stunts the other companies are and 'living on their reputation'. - Building some cheap boards but keeping the prices as high as their 'good' boards. - Case in point, the el'cheapo OST caps showing in the VRM circuits (even on socket 775 boards) where Asus used to (back in the 90's) constantly and without fail use very high quality caps like Rubycon.
-
I'll admit SOME Asus boards are still top of the line products but since 2000 or a little after Asus has been hit-or-miss on quality. You might get lucky, you might not. Their main stream product line (middle 'Asus' price range and lower) has been going down hill due to cost cutting and nickle and dime'ing the parts bin. (And their retail prices haven't gone down to match the cost cutting. - It's almost a scam in my opinion.)
-
1) Asus STILL has not acknowledged there even WAS a bad caps plague in the early 2000's and STILL has never admited there are cap problems on some of their boards that do in fact have known bad cap issues.
2) (During the plague/ under warranty boards.) They'd pitch a fit running people through hoops to get an unstable board replaced by RMA. (Everything else in the system is bad, it's not "their" bad motherboard.)
- They seemed to be trying to wear people out with the RMA process in the hopes they'd just give up and buy a new Asus board instead of getting a warranty replacement. (Many people did.)
- Asus should have been SUED over this just as MSI was.
-
Not all Asus boards are affected but the fact is they charge the same high prices for the boards with cheap caps as they do boards with good caps. (I've seen boards in the same model line where the 'standard' board has crap caps and the 'Deluxe' version has high end caps. - They KNOW exactly what they are doing.
-
Asus may have still have (some) awesome *PRODUCTS* but they have turned into a crap *COMPANY*.

Sorry for the rant.

~~~~~~~

>>Quote<<
a repair should ideally not only seek to replace the failed part, but attempt to reduce the chance the same thing will happen again.
--

You missed the point I think.
- The failure is NOT due to the ratings/specification (ESR) of the original cap.
- It's due to the quality.
--- The cheapo caps have cheapo chemicals that go bad quickly and THAT changes the ESR from the engineering specified value. (Or causes bloat or venting.)
-
You don't need higher ESR replacements. (Unless you want to overclock maybe).

All you need """to prevent it happening again""" is to get caps with chemicals that don't break down and cause the caps to operate outside the design parameters.

- Same specs, higher quality, reliable part.
--- Problem fixed.
--- Won't happen again.
~~ That's ALL that's REQUIRED. ~~

That said:
I agree it makes sense to put in the best caps you can get when the difference is only a few cents per cap.
--
But don't "be afraid" to replace with parts that 'only match' the origional specs.

This is what I see a lot of people doing. (Or talking like it.)
- Making their projects harder by trying to find caps that exceed the origional specs when that's not even necessary and won't matter.
- Often because they didn't even know the origional specs. (Which isn't always easy to find!)

- You just don't need Ruby MBZ/MCZ over there by the sound chip or between the PCI slots and that's the impression much of the discussion here gives people.

What ever WAS there is all you NEED to fix the problem.

Over spec'ing:
- Costs more.
- Reduces the number of viable replacement parts.

In finding replacements.
When you need say an ____uf cap at __volts in __mm can and you can't find them in the 'premium' ESR varieties.
- Use caps with the 'stock' ESR.
- That's all that's NEEDED.
- It will work fine..

...

Yes: If you only need 10 or 20 caps then 20 or 30 cents a cap to exceed the 'stock' ESR won't make much difference to you.

I'll be buying some values of caps in lots of 100 and maybe 500 so 20-30 cents a cap makes a difference. I'll be buying the cheapest GOOD BRAND and series caps that meet (or exceed) the origional specs.

The difference between me or you or Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob doing this and what those Corporate yeah-who "Suits" do is that we don't use CRAP CAPS.

~~~~~

Just a tip:
If you need a bunch of the same value caps the check the bulk vs single prices.
There are times when buying (say) 40 or 50 singles is the *same* cost as buying a bulk lot of 100. (Or close to it.)
And you have 50+/- effectively FREE caps. (For later? eBay? Christmas ornaments?).

.

[willawake]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

its like a big brain fart

[999999999]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

10 years ago, who knew capacitors would elicit such emotion? It's about time some cap supplier started selling deeeeluxe color anodized versions with an LED built into the top.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

How about we swap the LED for and ESR meter and a pressure gauge??

[Phenos]

Re: Found Teapo Specs - For Replacement Reference.

I got a sapphire pure innovation MB here with Teapo's on the vrm output but that's not all, THEY HAVE Panasonic/Matshushita Vents on them.