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Old 07-09-2009, 12:32 AM   #1
niffig
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Default Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Quick Rundown-My TV (Samsung LN46A750R) starts shutting itself on and off all by itself last Sunday, about 6 months past the warranty expiration date of 12 months. I wont go into my battles with Samsung,but after researching the internet and finding thousands of others with similar problems with Samsung LCDs, I made a startling discovery. Basically, they took Samwha WB series(which according to Samwhas own site, are obsolete since 1999)capacitors and installed them on the power supply.These power supply capacitors have a very high tendency to blow up in these LCD units, but Samsung will admit NOTHING. They are abusing the high failure rate of these to sucker people into extended warranty and expensive repairs.

Now heres where you guys come in. Take a few minutes and look up Samsung LCD on off issues on google. Between the internet and anecdotal evidence, this thing is HUGE! Where I need your expertise is finding out all you guys can about the WB series capacitors I removed from my TV, a 5$ fix instead of the $800 through Samsung.


There were 2 of each in my power supply:
Samwha WB series 25V, 1000 uf, 105 C(M)

Samwha WB series 10 V, 1000 uf, 105 C(M)

They were installed in circuits rated on the power supply board rated 32V and 13.5V respectively, which I do believe means there were underrated too(need confirmation on this too)

I have a friend with a very high priced corporate lawyer friend(lol I know), and he wants me to put together a package for him so he can see Ive got a case. I need your guys expert information on these capacitors so I can present some expert opinion to him, so any help is GREATLY appreciated.

Samsung has stonewalled me every step of the way, they know about this and are covering it up(they deleted many of my posts on cnet.com and banned me for no reason), the level of corporate spin and deception I have experienced is almost nauseating, it almost seems like a movie at times its so surreal.

Thank you in advance for any help, many people are affected by this, maybe even you.

Last edited by niffig; 07-09-2009 at 12:41 AM..
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Oh forgot to mention, please read the thread at cnet.com in their Samsung forum titled- Samsung: LN52A750 Turning on and off by itself

They deleted all my posts from this thread when I revealed the above information, but I saved it all in .pdf
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Big deal, why complain? We fix these and don't delay, eventually bad cap passes unfiltered voltage to mainboard will do greater damage to the 300 bucks plus mainboard. Order good caps from either of Topcat or one other here and fix it or have your good shop replace the caps.

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Old 07-09-2009, 08:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Research the topic, you sound like a Samsung Tech, this is a huge subindustry that many repair shops, Samsung Authorized Techs, and Samsungs extended warranty program are making BIG money on.I can understand your reluctance to expose this scenario if you work in or own a business involved in this cash cow. I already fixed it myself for 5 dollars in parts, within 24 hours of the problem starting. 300 bucks is the very low end of what people say Samsung is charging them. Oh, and could you please answer my question about the WB series? What the issue is that Samsung KNOWS they put these crappy capacitors in some of the most well selling TVs in the world the last 3 years, and are capitalizing on their failure. And why complain?? Cause I have a hard time not doing something when a corporation tries to eff me and many thousands, perhaps millions, of others. Samsung knows all this, and is doing a brilliant job of suppressing it.

Last edited by niffig; 07-09-2009 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

I doubt the caps were overvolted, they're just poor quality caps.
Don't blame you for being disappointed with Samsung, but it lasted well beyond the 1 year they promised. It wasn't built to last - not everything is.
Not fond of lawsuits about stuff like this. I'd like to retain the freedom to buy what I choose, not what lawyers decide for me.
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

And don't get out of shape over this, bad mouthing only serves to go blow-back on you, just deal with it calmly and you only simply get worse if you buy another even worse a generic! Cheaper to just get unit repaired as these units are excellent stuff. Samsung is not only immune to this, I am fixing Panasonic, generic brands, RCA etc, even Sony with bad caps and any brands. Capacitors fail when electrolyte out gas due to electrolyte bad formula or simply dried up from age.

We simply get capacitors replaced as stuff comes in. You should bring your TV to a good shop and have the capacitors replaced asap as you do not want to shell another 300 plus for a mainboard once problem is seen, get it fixed with new capacitors. This is only 2 or 3 caps in that certain models typically had all 1000uF 10V that are bloating in that samsung LCD models. Other voltages of or different value tend to be fine. The labor is not too bad as this is about 1/2 to 45 minute job for that samsung with bad caps on power supply.

Even with all this fuss, I'm still going to buy Samsung TVs/Monitors due to parts availability and quick that you don't get with generics (no parts!?) and RCA (most of their models is exchange only) and what more, samsung tend to have reasonable cost vs huge cost like Sony does, and not have to deal with stupid stuff like Sanyo (hostile to servicers) and RCA slow and too limited parts availability. Philips is fair as long as you wait (loong!).

Cheers, Wizard
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Umm, you still havent answered any of my questions regarding the WB series. I could see your arguments if they did not know the caps they were putting in were obsolete, but they clearly put them in just to prey on the consumer as their TVs failed at a predictable rate.

I already replaced the caps in my TV within 24 hours of this happening, my father is a CET and a master electrician, he told me exactly what the problem was without ever hearing any of this.I didnt need to take it to a shop, I have no soldering experience, but I watched a video and did the whole repair myself in less that 70 minutes.

The main point is that Samsung DELIBERATELY PUT THESE IN KNOWING THEY WOULD FAIL. That is a big issue to me, whether it passed the warranty period or not.

I understand you probably make alot of money from the scenario, and why you are defending it. We all must put food on our table. In a recession like this I find this appalling that Samsung is pulling this BS.

If I deal with it calmly, as you say, all I get is spin from the Samsung people. No one from samsung has ever addressed my question asking them if they were aware they put these caps in, and if they are aware, why did they put obsolete , almost 10 year old capacitors in $2000 plus TVs?Perhaps to corner the market by underpricing their product, then make that up in the servicing costs when these units reliably fail?Perhaps to save a few pennies on a piece of electronics, at the cost of reliability, that many people spend a large part of their disposable income on?

I have no interest in money here. What I am doing is trying to expose an obvious ripoff. Keep in mind that to this day, Samsung does not admit there is a problem with these caps, and that all the thousands of people experiencing this are unique.These people do not have the knowledge that you guys apparently do, I am looking to protect those people.You are in the business of servicing these, correct??And you are well aware of these caps failing, no?Yet Samsung, with all its corporate superpowers, is not aware there is a problem, or that it is these caps causing the non-problem.

Could someone please give me some information about the WBs like I clearly asked, one person who depends on these failing for a living, saying there is nothing wrong, does not seem interested in answering those, so I need someone who can.

In Alberta, where I live, it is illegal to knowingly sell a faulty product, whether it survives the warranty period or not.

You may continue buying Samsungs because you know it is a cheap fix for yourself, but what about all these people affected who do not know and get hosed by Samsung for exhorbitant repair costs?



Once again thanks for any help in advance

Last edited by niffig; 07-09-2009 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:42 PM   #8
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

And gdement- I appreciate your wish to purchase in a free market.However, if its a free market, why do we not hear that these are faulty and that consumers are at risk of purchasing "will only work if warranty installed"LCDs. It seems Samsung and all its affiliated repair shops do all they can to rake in as much money off this situation as possible, all the while denying anything is wrong. I am no big fan of legalities either, but as I mentioned, Samsung has done NOTHING to appease my concerns.

And the only reason it lasted so long- I keep my volume low, and rarely ever turn my TV on or off, its almost always running. My father (a Certified Electronic Technologist trained by the Canadian Military)said this definately prolonged the lifespan of these caps, because they did not face as many spikes.I know 6 people firsthand with the EXACT same issue,2 failed before 1 year and the other 4 failed before 2.
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Old 07-09-2009, 02:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Now you made this clear, awesome on your fix.

And to answer your question, no we did not make lot on these repairs. 100 to 150 on average for this easy fixes.

Samsung were not looking to pull fast one. 10 years old capacitors aren't unusual and still good if it is unused prior to use and your TV is not that old (around 2007 or 2008 or so? That puts it around 8 to 9 years old capacitor at that point. Do you have the old capacitors to take pictures of or numbers on the capacitors?

Like I said it was the 1,000uF 10V caps failing in some of samsung units as well as your WB series bad caps. But this happened to be bad capacitors from that particular group of caps, not simply age of these. I have new Panasonic 1000uF 10V capacitors over 10 years old (1997) and still good to use and are quality caps.

Point is any makers put out specifications and number of caps at certain price point and cap vendors/ suppliers provides gives samples for maker to test then if approved large order is placed. Sometimes old caps escapes into the wild either good ones or bad ones.

Oh, Voltage are also wrong. The 10V caps sits on the 5V run and 5V standby supplies, 25V is used for 12V~13V supplies if I recall correctly. The 24V if used gets either 35V or 50V but these particular sets uses onboard lamp inverter so there were no need for 24V supplies.

Point in case:
Samwha
This is really recent, both are bad caps XC series blue sleeve with silver prints:
1,000uF 10V V9E
2,200uF 25V V0A

But there were bad ones in *dark* brown sleeve, WB series with silver printing as well I see these for 2 and 1/2 years production period of Samsung TVs with these also (2007-2009).
1,000uF 10V U8A

All are bloated.

Cheers, Wizard

Last edited by Wizard; 07-09-2009 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 07-09-2009, 02:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Quickie: checked service manual. yes 5V uses 10V caps, and 13V supplies uses 25V caps.

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Old 07-09-2009, 10:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Thankyou for the reply Wizard, I apologize if I came off as hostile.

The dark brown ones you speak of are the ones I removed from my TV.
So in your opinion Samsung would have had no idea of Samwhas reputation for bad caps when they bought them out in 2001 or 2002 whatever it was?Or that they should extensively test these before they put them in such a large production run of TVs?

So manufacturers can put faulty products within their own, and as long as it passes warranty period, and they claim they had no idea they might be faulty, they bear no responsibility?
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

<<So manufacturers can put faulty products within their own, and as long as it passes warranty period, and they claim they had no idea they might be faulty, they bear no responsibility?>>

pretty much. remember, back in 2001, bad caps hadn't been around long enough for the problem to show up. caps fail over a few years. 2001 would be when the first ones were starting to fail. it wasn't really noted until late 2002 ish. for a seemingly trivial part, the money to test probably seemed like a waste... nobody saw the failures coming, not even the Taiwanese manufactures at that point.
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:38 AM   #13
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

That period (01-04) was when a tech took incomplete formula from a good capacitor maker and used it at other capacitor maker and that where we saw that 2 to 3 years period of bad caps. Afterward that not as bad. But bad caps do exist from low quality capacitors hence this forums to help each other to ID good caps to replace their bad caps in the stuff.

Samwha is known poor quality capacitors inconsistent some are good, some bloated up and doesn't take heat very well, poor life. That's all.

It comes down winning the capacitor's makers bids to come down to within a budget containts that is set by samsung for their batch of parts orders. Samsung DOES keep QC to keep the issues to certain %. I see this change happen in certain models over the years.

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Old 07-10-2009, 10:45 AM   #14
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Thankyou so much for the replies.

I have read the stories about the stolen formula.So around 2001 2002 ish, this began to be a problem, and Samsung didnt know about this problem, and put these in my TV in 2007?The 5 years in between was not enough for these WB caps to be outed as bad caps?

Im sorry to be beating this to death, but I still fail to see how Samsung could not have known these were bad caps when they installed them.

I dont care what constraints they have in their budget, I could see it on a Vizio or some cheap brand like that, but these are the best (other than caps) TVs in their price range, by far. I find it hard to believe that they built such a quality product compared to their competitors in their price range, but somehow overlooked these caps.
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Old 07-10-2009, 11:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Interesting samsung wouldn't use their own caps in their stuff (semco, some labeled samsung)

They are not nearly as bad as samwha.
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Old 07-10-2009, 02:01 PM   #16
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by 370forlife
Interesting samsung wouldn't use their own caps in their stuff (semco, some labeled samsung)

They are not nearly as bad as samwha.
Not surprising if you understand how the set is manufactured. Samsung has a large factory to manufacture LCD glass sheets. Some are used to build their panels, some are sold elsewhere.

They have a department that designs their LCD TVs. Another department builds the prototypes. Then it gets handed off to manufacturing engineering. Manufacturing Engineering looks at the components, subassemblies, assemblies, etc that will be required to build it. And they look at the capacity available at their various plants, and the cost of using their own facilities against the cost of having a subassembly built by someone else. No company will deliberately use defective components in the products they sell.

Depending on capacity available and production volume, sometimes it is best to build something in house. Sometimes it is better to ship the circuit boards and components off to another company and have them assemble and solder them, then test them in house. And sometimes it is better to hire XYZ company to handle everything - procuring the parts, assembly, and testing the finished boards.

One thing that is often overlooked is the cost of a bad component. If a bad capacitor is caught at incoming inspection, it costs a couple of cents to get rid of it. If it makes it to assembly, it costs perhaps half a buck in time lost. In test, it would be more like $5.00 - $25.00, depending on how hard it was to find. If it makes it out to the customer and fails under warranty, the cost can be more than $100 - particularly if it requires a service call.

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Old 07-12-2009, 06:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

What models did they put the WB caps in Wizard?And from when to when, just a guess
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Old 07-12-2009, 10:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Whew. Very broad.

Range from mid 2006 to early 2009. But I still find bad caps in 2009. And it happens not very often. Say 2-3 even 5 units every month just for bad caps, not too bad. And not all of them has this issues, it either is LCD, mainboard or failed PSU.

Now, these bad caps only happened in LCD models, particularly 27"-50" but don't refain from buying these, they still are repairable with parts (availablity) or caps. Plasma models uses higher quality caps as they had to take extra heat.

BTW, you can't do that with a generic units. Ever, hence I have customer's generic 50" plasma sitting here (panel, all drivers stuff and PSU are all samsung parts) except the mainboard is generic of sh!t which is dead on my bench trying to find a compatible Samsung mainboard to work with this particular panel (1366x768). Samsung I can still get parts for a samsung 5 years old 17" LCD monitor I picked up for 9.99. Either LCD controller or the microcontroller is bad, price is not bad from samsung.

I got 3 other LCD tvs useless because of mainboard failures, one dell (W2600, worst kind of worse kind to look for is oddball LCD 1280x768, widescreen is 1365 or 1366x768 so not easy to find a good mainboard.) One is Sanyo 40" with bad mainboard super expensive to replace and diffcult as we don't have a distributor for sanyo parts, and a 32" 1366x768 (AUO) generic with a stuck in test mode mainboard.

Pays to stick with Samsung and other good brands that stands behind repair stuff, don't buy one that insists on shipping a particular unit back as this means they do not repair these, they ship a working unit to you and either resell or throw away the duds which is common with generic stuff. Good ones had either authorized servicer take the unit for diagnosis/repair or you take it to nearest authorized service shop depending.

Cheers, Wizard
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Old 07-12-2009, 11:13 PM   #19
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

10 minute limit stepped on cowpie. :P

Whew. Very broad. You will see that there are non-LCD stuff that use WB caps so it is hard to generalize. Just repair them as you have done, remember, what you are basically had "pointed" to guilty where there are many other makers who did use those samwha caps and is not a big issues in other areas while other areas is having a problem with those. Same with OST thing. Some are good, some are a headache. But for us as purists if we own them, we would recap them regardless because we care. But vast majority of customers simply don't care. All they wanted is a TV and they don't care where it comes from. Hence this badcap forums where people are coming here and discovering what is up is up. We simply can't "ban" those bad ones off the list or the stuff get real expensive suddenly and jobs lost.

Samsung that had this swollen caps in LCDs (it doesn't have to be WB):
Range from mid 2006 to early 2009. But I still find bad caps in 2009. And it happens not very often. Say 2-3 even 5 units every month just for bad caps, not too bad. And not all of them has this issues, it either is LCD, mainboard or failed PSU.

Now, these bad caps only happened in LCD models, particularly 27"-50" but don't refain from buying these, they still are repairable with parts (availablity) or caps. Plasma models uses higher quality caps as they had to take extra heat.

BTW, you can't do that with a generic units. Ever, hence I have customer's generic 50" plasma sitting here (panel, all drivers stuff and PSU are all samsung parts) except the mainboard is generic of sh!t which is dead on my bench trying to find a compatible Samsung mainboard to work with this particular panel (1366x768). Samsung I can still get parts for a samsung 5 years old 17" LCD monitor I picked up for 9.99. Either LCD controller or the microcontroller is bad, price is not bad from samsung.

I got 3 other LCD tvs useless because of mainboard failures, one dell (W2600, worst kind of worse kind to look for is oddball LCD 1280x768, widescreen is 1365 or 1366x768 so not easy to find a good mainboard.) One is Sanyo 40" with bad mainboard super expensive to replace and diffcult as we don't have a distributor for sanyo parts, and a 32" 1366x768 (AUO) generic with a stuck in test mode mainboard.

Pays to stick with Samsung and other good brands that stands behind repair stuff, don't buy one that insists on shipping a particular unit back as this means they do not repair these, they ship a working unit to you and either resell or throw away the duds which is common with generic stuff. Good ones had either authorized servicer take the unit for diagnosis/repair or you take it to nearest authorized service shop depending. Important thing is support if something breaks and get repaired.

By the way, Pioneer is full of bad caps too even it had nichicons in RRTV era and bumper crop of soldering joints, literally whole chassis is one giant solder cracks because their solder pads is too large drilled for wire leads and very thin solder. How lovely. Not common to do over 20-30 caps in some.

So does Hitachi included with rotting fish smelling caps in RRTV tvs, Toshiba with 10uF SMD in hyper modules, RRTV as well. All old history (around 3 to 10 years ago.) Last one I fixed a toshiba with hyper module bad caps was last winter/last fall.

See, even good caps makers had bad moments as well.

Cheers, Wizard
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: Samsung TV On Off Cycle Bad Capacitors, PLEASE READ, I need your help guys

Like I said regarding the Samwha capacitors being inconsistent in quality. I have new data point to add: this unit here is 2007 and have WB caps, still good.

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