MS-7100, audio problem

[939mark]

Sooo, my main machine is based on a MS-7100 K8N SLI Platinum. It has been rock solid about until a couple weeks ago when it started randomly BSODding with a STOP 124 error code. Typically this happened when playing games but simple web browsing could trigger it as well (probably flash-related)

The sound card is a Creative X-Fi XtremeMusic (PCI of course), although replacing it with other PCI audio cards only made things worse. Eventually, after I had tried anything I could think of, by pure chance I spotted a leaking cap halfway through the socket and the slot area.

The baddie here is a specimen of Nichicon HM(M) 1000 uF 10V, date code A0402. In the attached pic borrowed from this post (thanks nurio), it's the purple number 2, between the marvell chip and the coils, south west of the socket.

I also found another 4 HN(M) 1000 uF 16V, date A0439 - seemingly OK (a bit bent but no trace of electrolyte) but guess I'll better part ways with them, these are located between the VRM heatsink and the port connectors, marked purple 5 in the pic.

Now since I lack both the tools and the skills, this puppy will have to go into some lab to replace the HNs. Before I do that, let me ask:

1) does the defect description sound like it may actually be caused by that cap?

2) are there any other known bad ones?

Here's the list:

Panasonic

• FJZ (45 III NX/44 III WI)- 1000 uF 6.3V 105 °C - Black
• FJ (3D V RO/39 IV RO/39 V RN) - 3300 uF 6.3V
• FL (4N II GA/4N II WW) - 1800 uF 6.3V 105 °C - Black

Chemicon

• KZE (40 F7?) - 100 uF 25V - Green
• KZG ( 4 (7) 6 J?) - 470 uF 16V - Brown
• KMG (4 (7)?) - 470 uF 6.3V - Brown

Rubycon

• ZL (T0435) - 470 uF 10V - Black
• MBZ (T0413) - 1000 uF 10V - Blue/Purple

G-Lux On

• ? (412 K/M) - 100 uF 6.3V - Black

TIA!

[shovenose]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

-G-luxon are junk, chemicon kzg like to fail w/o bloating, and nichicons hm/hns are bad.

[yyonline]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

Shovenose is pretty much right on.

I'd replace any Nichicon NM/HN. They had a manufacturing problem which was corrected in 2005. "A bit bent" is just as bad as leaking. It just means that the failure was slower and didn't break through the vent lines.

I'd replace the Chemicon KZG. They're just plain unreliable.

The G-Luxon is unreliable, but in that size it's unlikely to cause any issues. I'm not saying that it won't or can't, just that it's unlikely to. That said, it can't hurt to replace it while you have the board in the shop.

Bad capacitors can cause all sorts of stability issues. It's impossible to say if the bad capacitors are causing this particular problem, but they are known to cause problems just like this one.

I see that the board has an Nvidia chipset, and a chipset fan. Make sure that chipset fan is working properly. The tiny little fans like to seize up and die, and Nvidia chipsets have been known to occasionally cook themselves to death.

[939mark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

First thing first: thanks to both of you for replying

I'd replace any Nichicon NM/HN. They had a manufacturing problem which was corrected in 2005. "A bit bent" is just as bad as leaking. It just means that the failure was slower and didn't break through the vent lines.

It looks like those caps are connected to the ports which TBH didn't give me any trouble until that point. Anyway: assuming they have indeed already failed, there should be gunk on the underside, right?

That said, it can't hurt to replace it while you have the board in the shop.

Well at this point I'm looking at 1 HM, 4 HN and 2 KZG = 7 caps as a bare minimum. There are other 9 slightly bent caps (FJs and FLs) near the CPU socket and one FJZ near the PCI-E slots, although considering where they are located it seems realistic that I could've bent those myself while working on the board.

I was hoping to keep the number of caps (mostly because of the cost of labor) down, otherwise it might make more sense to just replace the board. So, just how much time does a skilled technician to replace 10 or 20 caps?

I see that the board has an Nvidia chipset, and a chipset fan. Make sure that chipset fan is working properly. The tiny little fans like to seize up and die, and Nvidia chipsets have been known to occasionally cook themselves to death.

Oh that's the least of my concerns the damn fan has given up its ghost long ago and was replaced with a Thermalright HR-05 SLI, thoughtful of you to point that out though, thanks

[939mark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

A couple pics of the Panasonic FJs, FLs and the HNs.

[c_hegge]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

It looks like those caps are connected to the ports which TBH didn't give me any trouble until that point. Anyway: assuming they have indeed already failed, there should be gunk on the underside, right?

Not at all. It is very common for caps to fail without leaking their electrolyte at all, so no gunk on the bottom doesn't mean that the cap is OK. If it's bulged at the top, it's bad.

Well at this point I'm looking at 1 HM, 4 HN and 2 KZG = 7 caps as a bare minimum. There are other 9 slightly bent caps (FJs and FLs) near the CPU socket and one FJZ near the PCI-E slots, although considering where they are located it seems realistic that I could've bent those myself while working on the board.

Those panny caps look fine from the pics. I wouldn't worry about them. Panny are a reliable brand.

I was hoping to keep the number of caps (mostly because of the cost of labor) down, otherwise it might make more sense to just replace the board. So, just how much time does a skilled technician to replace 10 or 20 caps?

Always relplace everything questionable. Questionable caps are:

Non-Japanese brands
Chemi-con KZG and KZJ
Nichicon HM and HM manufactured earlier than '06
TK (Toshin Kogyo) <- I think that's how it's spelled
Anything bulged, leaking or damaged

You could send the motherboard to Topcat if you're in the US and you don't want to re-cap it yourself.

[939mark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

Those panny caps look fine from the pics. I wouldn't worry about them.

Fine then, I need some directions about replacements for these caps:

HM(M) 1000 uF 10V
HN(M) 1000 uF 16V
KZG 470 uF 16V
G-Lux On 100 uF 6.3V

[yyonline]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

You didn't mention what size these caps are. The size of the capacitor may make an important difference in locating a replacement. The important dimensions are diameter and height and are measured in MM. You'll also need to figure out the series of that G-Luxon cap. G-luxon series is usually printed right next to the temperature rating (ie XX105°C, where XX is the series)

You also don't mention where you're located. There are members here from all over the world. Depending on your location, different vendors may be options.

Badcaps.net sells caps, is located in the US, and I've always been happy with Chris/Topcat's service.

[939mark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

They're all 8 mm diameter except the G-Lux On which reads a 5.4 or 5.5 mm on the caliper. Thanks to your tip yyonline, I found out the G-Lux On is a SM. I live in Italy so there would be one headache less to buy them within the UE.

BTW I paid a visit to a local store and was offered ELNA-branded caps rated for 105°C to replace the 1000 uF HN, HM and the 470 uF KZG, but I couldn't spot the series code. Are these worth a second look?

[shovenose]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

no. those are crap

[yyonline]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

As far as I know, ELNA are reliable caps, but not for this application, as they are not suitable for motherboard use. I am not sure of suppliers in the EU. I took a look at Farnell Italia, but wasn't able to find anything suitable. This is not uncommon, as motherboard grade capacitors are very much a specialty item. Unless you know of any other suppliers to check out, you may have to resort to importing them.

[939mark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

Well I tried the local store just in case (...but no sir, no luck for you this year!)

It'd be no problem ordering them online, so just let me know what would work best on my mainboard. In the past I was even lucky getting a couple t-shirts and stuff from the States, but there's a definite chance customs will delay and/or impose crazy fees on the package - so I'd leave that as a last ditch option.

Searching eBay turned up what it appears to be an ample supply of 1000uF 10/16V MBZs (are these ok?) but most sellers are all located in HK and PRC (only one is ..Swiss?).

Of course if anyone is dying to suggest a reliable seller in the EU, well spit it out

[shovenose]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

many capacitors off of ebay are counterfeit. but you can post links to the ones youre looking at we can tell if theyre fakes

[yyonline]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

MBZ are good enough to replace everything except the HN capacitors. That said, the HN capacitors are the VRM input caps, and are likely overkill in that application. Odds are that MBZ will be adequate replacements for them in this case...but there's no guarantee. If you want caps that will work for sure, you need Rubycon MCZ as replacements for the HN.

Ebay caps are hit or miss. Even if they show genuine ones in the photo, they can still send fakes. There are some good ebay sellers, but unfortunately it seems many sell fakes. eBay seems to have little interest in removing the sellers who sell the fakes.

Badcaps.net sells all the caps you need, and they're definitely genuine. If you're going to go out of the EU anyway, why not order from here and support the site which has given you the advice on fixing your board? You may want to send Topcat (the site owner) a message to see if he ships to Italy, however, before you order anything just to be sure.

Unfortunately I can relate to Italian customs being difficult... I sell on eBay a lot, and I really hesitate to ship to Italy as my packages have a habit of getting lost there... Wouldn't getting a package from Hong Kong through customs be just as tricky?

[939mark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

The Swiss seller has MCZs here. What about KZJs to replace the 2x 470uF 16V KZG?

Wouldn't getting a package from Hong Kong through customs be just as tricky?

Probably, I don't want to order from China for a variety of reasons, but if I had to single out one, the most important would be that I'm currently without my main PC and I can't afford to wait another 6-8 weeks to get the caps. Unfortunately ordering from the States is the same unless I fork out for express delivery which is cost prohibitive most often than not.

However I'll drop Topcat a PM later and see if we can work something out

[retiredcaps]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

The Swiss seller has MCZs here.

The date code T0428 indicate that these Rubycons were made in 2004 week 28. If true, these caps are 6 year old.

I just bought some MCZs and they have a date code from 2009 or 2010. That is T0948.

[939mark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

I guess those auctions are generated by some kind of program, that would also explain why the pic shows 8 caps while the auction is for 4 of them. If I'm gonna place an order with this seller I'm certainly going to ask about date codes.

[bigbeark]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

The date code T0428 indicate that these Rubycons were made in 2004 week 28. If true, these caps are 6 year old.

I just bought some MCZs and they have a date code from 2009 or 2010. That is T0948.

While newer is better, unused caps do have a long shelf life. More than 10 years. That said, I'm sure Topcat can get those caps to you quickly!

[shovenose]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

While newer is better, high qualityunused caps do have a long shelf life. More than 10 years. That said, I'm sure Topcat can get those caps to you reallyquickly!

not always the fuhjyyu caps in antec psu a few years ago were bloating/leaking when they were taken off the store shelves a few months later. so im gonna edit your quote to what is true.

[c_hegge]

Re: MS-7100, audio problem

The Swiss seller has MCZs here. What about KZJs to replace the 2x 470uF 16V KZG?

Those caps -look- genuine, but that seller only has those MCZ caps. You'd want to replace all of the questionable ones. NEVER under any circumstances use Chemi-con KZJ or KZG in a re-cap unless you want to have to re-cap it again. For the 1000uF HM caps, I'd use these and for the KZGs I'd use these.