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Is the grounding in my house normal?

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    Is the grounding in my house normal?

    A while ago after installing some new components I started having an issue with my audio - through the speakers I would get a buzz - not hum - that didn't increase with volume. I tried almost everything, including connecting only the central unit, other set of speakers, other outlet etc. and finally found a solution by putting in my TV tuner, and plugging the TV cable into it, which would kill the buzz completly.

    By then I had already been googling things for a while and knew that this was somehow related to grounding. It's normal for the TV cable to shock pinch now and then, but when the cable goes into the back of the computer, if one is to hold two ends of the cable, a current strong enough to make the fingertips twitch is felt. It became clear at that point that there's some kind of charge in my computer case, that's causing the audio interference, and which can be leaked out the TV cable to eliminate it.

    I then began backtracing this. For many years, before the speaker buzz even, whenever I would work on the back of the computer, I would sometimes get a shock if I touched the heater at the same time. I recently made a test and put one of my hands on the back of the PC and one on the heater. At first nothing at all happens, but if I look for even a VERY small portion where the paint on the heater has chipped, and touch it, I can feel the same continuous shock as when holding the TV cable ends. This ONLY happens when the TV cable is not plugged.

    And then I began to look at a different phenomenon. I never really thought about it, but this had been happening for as long as I've lived here. If I run my fingers gently over the metal surface of the case, I can feel a vibration against my fingers. This is a feeling I can replicate with the refrigerator and washing machine aswell. It is also a feeling I can find when, for example, my mother has her laptop on her lap and is sitting on the couch, and the charger is plugged in. Her skin feels just like the refrigerator/pc/washing machine. And yes the laptop charger does have 3 prongs. It's not a shock sensation, but you can feel the presence of a current.

    While I have not yet experimented with anything other than the PC, would this vibration I'm feeling in contact with these items also turn to shock if I were to touch something grounded? Many years back we had an older washing machine, which had paint chips in several places. It too was plugged into a wall socket that's supposedly grounded, but if I touched those metal portions I would feel the exact same kind of continuous shock I feel with the PC, WITHOUT having to touch any grounded source.

    Since I have lived here all my life I have no referrence point, as I've not carried out these experiments in other people's homes. Is it normal to feel this vibration when running your fingers against powerful appliances, or is it a sign of bad grounding throughout the house?
    Last edited by Searinox; 12-17-2010, 05:49 PM.

    #2
    Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

    Yes your grounding sounds bad.

    But the noise is more likely a cheap PSU with a no or an inadequate input filter.

    .
    Mann-Made Global Warming.
    - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

    -
    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

    - Dr Seuss
    -
    You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
    -

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      #3
      Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

      The PSU is a ThermalTake 470(?) Watts, ofcourse that's no guarantee that it couldn't have simply gone bad at some point. I noticed that out of 3 sets of speakers, one set didn't manifest buzz at all - the Sony have an amplifier box and all in all are the most superior of all, so it seems that good enough speakers can also filter out the noise. Since it doesn't scale with volume I assume it's not PART OF the audio signal, but rather some sort of feedback up the audio ground wire that indirectly causes the buzz right?

      But help me out understand the input filter a bit... I DO have an UPS which supposedly filters electrical disturbances out(yes I did also try removing it from the setup, it's not the cause either). I should probably point out another odd occurrence -- I DON'T even need to have the audio jack plugged in, just holding it about an inch away from the case the buzzing starts.

      So back to the problem of house grounding, what exactly am I to make of this? Does the house not have grounding at all or is it... what? Weak? Interrupted at some point? I really don't know the ways in which grounding can go bad. It's been like this since I was but a toddler(I noticed these vibrations at an early age), so you're saying I'm not supposed to feel them at all?

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

        This grounding sounds like no grounding at all !!!

        Check voltages you are likely to have 110VAC there !

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

          Originally posted by Pyr0Beast View Post
          This grounding sounds like no grounding at all !!!

          Check voltages you are likely to have 110VAC there !
          I don't currently have the devices to measure sadly, and in my country we use 220V btw. What bothers me the most is that from what I've read on the internet grounding is supposedly very important to protect people from potentially fatal electric shocks, and we've lived for over 20 years with this type of "grounding" without incident?!

          How should I go about to test if the ground connector in wall sockets is indeed draining stray current as it's supposed to?

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

            110VAC is half of 220VAC and likely to be present where switchers are used because of input noise filtering with two Y capacitors. Current is low but it is annoying and can burn electronic componets.

            Just check with voltage testing screwdriver (it has a light in it which will glow if voltage is present)

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

              Either your house is not grounded, or some device in your house is continuously dumping current into the ground. I'd say first check your service panel. It should either have a copper wire running to a metal stake outside or a copper wire clamped to the pipe where water enters your home. Check and make at least one implementation exists, and that it has good contact with the ground. If you do work on the grounding wire, be sure to cut the main breaker, as you could have up to a 220V potential between the wiring system and the ground. Probably best to call in a professional, unless you clearly know what you are doing.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                I wouldn't do it myself. A good professional should fix these things and inspect all installation in the house, especially if it is your house.
                Cost of such person is neglegible to the price of your house burning down or someone getting electrocuted because of negligence.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                  Originally posted by Pyr0Beast View Post
                  I wouldn't do it myself. A good professional should fix these things and inspect all installation in the house, especially if it is your house.
                  Cost of such person is neglegible to the price of your house burning down or someone getting electrocuted because of negligence.
                  Definitely the best way to go. Especially since a short in the 220V line or a break in the neutral line could cause anything grounded to become live and an electrocution hazard.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                    if you can afford it, get a pro. note that electricians are not cheap.
                    sigpic

                    (Insert witty quote here)

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                      #11
                      Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                      They are not. But they cost little to get things fixed.
                      You shoul've seen cost of a washing machine repair guy. 250€/h

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                        I tried holding the laptop while touching an unpainted spot on the heater in the livingroom. I could feel a constant current in my fingers, though alot weaker than what the computer case produces. I'd hazard to say that touching the fridge while touching... I don't know, the kitchen sink at the same time, would produce an even stronger effect. The strongest of all. And I haven't the guts to try it, nor has anyone, thankfully, ever touched the sink and fridge simultaneously in 20 years.

                        I've made some headway. I took a very long extension cord and managed to plug the computer in an outlet in the hallway. The buzzing died. Completly. I then proceeded to plug the fridge and mom's laptop into the outlet, and the vibrations I have been feeling for over 20 years WENT AWAY. Apparently there is at least ONE electric outlet in the house which has PROPER grounding. Ofcourse the biggest problem now is how on "earth" would I fix this? I'd have to break the walls and tear the wires out and lay them again, or perhaps I should check the apartment's electric panel...

                        But I am left with one question now. Even though I've discovered a REAL problem that is causing my computer speakers to buzz, they have not done so, for years, until now. What could have gone bad or more sensitive as to pick this noise up only now? What changed to make them receptable to this?
                        Last edited by Searinox; 12-18-2010, 06:01 AM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                          Sorry for double posting, but I've made an interesting test and I may have reached a conclusion, and the board won't let me edit posts 30 minutes old... here goes.

                          All of my computer parts, including speakers, are powered from an UPS(which ofcourse I also tried eliminating from the system with no improvements). From this UPS then runs a single power cable to the outlet. That one cable is the source for all the power, AND GROUND, of the entire setup. I unplugged it.

                          The computer ofcourse kept on running backed up by the UPS' battery, as did the speakers. I checked the audio and I can hear no more no less than the same amount of buzzing. Since the UPS provides AC power in the first two prongs the same way in which electric outlets do, the only variable remains the third prong - ground, which ofcourse, no UPS or other device, can emulate or back up, which simply HAS to be connected to a real physical outlet at all times.

                          Since the ground has effectively been lifted, it can be concluded that the amount of buzzing without any ground is the same as the buzzing with whatever ground this outlet has. At the same time, a call to my previous post, once the power cord is plugged into the hallway outlet, the buzzing disappears completly. From these facts, is it safe to assume that the amount of grounding done by my room's outlet, is effectively zero?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                            Originally posted by PCBONEZ View Post
                            Yes your grounding sounds bad.

                            But the noise is more likely a cheap PSU with a no or an inadequate input filter.

                            .
                            In other words you are looking at TWO different problems and assuming they are related.
                            They aren't necessarily related.
                            .
                            Mann-Made Global Warming.
                            - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                            -
                            Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                            - Dr Seuss
                            -
                            You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                            -

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                              I would test every socket in your house with one of these:-

                              http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-ELECTRIC-M...item483d99bee0

                              I always test with this device after doing any rewiring work...just to double check.
                              ________________________________________________

                              Invisible airwaves crackle with life
                              Bright antennae bristle with the energy
                              ________________________________________________

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                                Originally posted by Radio Fox View Post
                                I would test every socket in your house with one of these:-

                                http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-ELECTRIC-M...item483d99bee0

                                I always test with this device after doing any rewiring work...just to double check.
                                We would have a problem, in my country outlets don't look like that, and I don't know where to find an adapter either. But if you can just tell me in words what kind of measuring device I need, and how to measure, I will test the earth on all of my sockets. I know one thing for sure, the socket in the hallway will produce the best test results.

                                EDIT: Okay I understand now - a mains socket tester. I'll look into it.
                                Last edited by Searinox; 12-18-2010, 08:31 AM.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                                  To the original poster: WARNING! You could electrocute yourself by touching a grounded object with one hand and then a live wire with the other hand at the same instant. This can cause a LETHAL AC current to flow thru the heart. Please be very carefull.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                                    It's not that I have a live wire in the other hand, I am touching a "live" metal casing, one that isn't grounded properly. I am well aware of the risks that, apparently, this electrical setup has presented in our house for 25 years.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                                      Originally posted by Searinox View Post
                                      It's not that I have a live wire in the other hand, I am touching a "live" metal casing, one that isn't grounded properly. I am well aware of the risks that, apparently, this electrical setup has presented in our house for 25 years.
                                      Your "live" metal casing is live by virtue of a small aprox. 200k to 2meg ohm resistor across the HOT line and case GROUND, take away the GROUND and you have a DANGEROUS situation now.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Re: Is the grounding in my house normal?

                                        Originally posted by PCBONEZ View Post
                                        In other words you are looking at TWO different problems and assuming they are related.
                                        They aren't necessarily related.
                                        .
                                        I would normally have thought so. But it seems that whenever grounding is okay, the buzzing also disappears. I haven't been able to work out an instance where one problem is present and the other isn't. Once the TV cable is plugged into the tuner OR the computer is plugged in the socket down the hall, both computer case vibrating sensation and speaker buzz disappear together.

                                        But why has my computer only in the past month started to buzz, since the bad ground has existed for over two decades?

                                        Indeed the novelty of the noise suggests an internal, or new computer problem. At the same time, it is INSEPARABLE from the age-old ground issue - ground gets fixed, buzzing stops. Is there a specification in mobo or audio standards that states all equipment MUST tollerate bad ground without producing noise? If there is, then I would indeed concur that something inside the PC isn't doing its job.
                                        Last edited by Searinox; 12-18-2010, 02:04 PM.

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