abit vp6 poly mod

[PCBONEZ]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

Before this period of time, back in the year 2000 for example, no one thought of putting polymer capacitors on motherboards.

Not true at all.
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I have two Intel N440BX dual P2 server boards built in 1998/1999 that are 100% solid polymer from the factory.

You didn't see solid poly caps back then because they were MO EXPENSIVE!

These boards retailed for $899 when they were new.

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[kc8adu]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

Regarding the poly mod, i think it is great to preserve a great peace of hardware that way. I think i will do the same thing with my current system, when it is time to get a new gaming rig.

For my daily needs, i don`t need anything faster. So i think combined with a nice Monitor switch it is probably the best option.

For those who always nag " you should not do that, it is not designed this way" i can only say that if you have a clue or are willing to learn the needed theory, you can improve / change many things.
Or do you think that those circuits are some kind of ultra complex alien technology? no it is man made, so man can change it.

That said, don`t get me wrong, it is not always easy to fix something or to do such thing without acquiring the needed knowledge. But i think ad Bc.net there are enough people who get theory and reality aligned.

you should see the mods i have done to other things like cars/trucks.
wait till you go into a parts store and ask for a clutch for a 76 chevy suburban with a 6 sp manual trannie.
watch them go nuts trying to find it and finally have to see it themselves.
thats the one i transplanted the drivetrain from a brand new vette into.
the kid laughed and said "thats just sick!"
the vette was splattered against a tree.owner had no insurance and i bought the wreck real cheap.

[Topcat]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

If you would be able to run sVista on 286/386/486 PC... you wouldn't need a new PC.

You hit on something big there, and you're absolutely right. The funny part is people contact me on a DAILY basis just hoping like hell their 2~3yr old system can be repaired, the reason, and I quote: "I don't want to be screwed into using vista!"

KC8, nice with the vette. I had a fieroGT with a northstar V8 in it, that aroused the same comments as yours. It's a cool feeling to know you have something that doesn't have a twin anywhere in the world!

[Newbie2]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

Not true at all.
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I have two Intel N440BX dual P2 server boards built in 1998/1999 that are 100% solid polymer from the factory.

You didn't see solid poly caps back then because they were MO EXPENSIVE!

These boards retailed for $899 when they were new.

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When I say "motherboard", I was referring to what I saw on normal Slot 1 and Socket 370 consumer motherboard priced around $70-$150. I was not talking about server motherboard, which have higher end components.

Stop acting like you're the smart one PCBONEZ.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

kc8adu

I know where to find vrm ref design for Intel chips.
Where do I find them for the others?

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[Newbie2]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

Also, my father, an electrical enginner, says that polymer capacitors on regular motherboards is a marketing hype. In regular computers operating under regular conditions, high-quality low-ESR aluminum electrolytic capacitors will be good enough.

I'd also like to see the VRM reference designs, since I couldn't find any on a quick Google search.

[zandrax]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

@ Newbie2: are you sure polymer caps are an hype or there is something you don't know?
If I understand correctly all talks on Badcaps about polymer caps and mods, polys are used on newer boards not because they last longer than electrolytic ones (good lytics should last 10-15 years, much longer the useful life of the motherboard), but mainly because they have an higher ripple and a lower ESR then lytics: they're better suited with high frequency VRMs (near the megahertz) and deliver a "cleaner" tension.

Zandrax

[kc8adu]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod


this is for an old vrm.
solid polys are not hype.
just too expensive to use in walmart grade stuff.

[zandrax]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

www.intersil.com/data/fn/FN4765.pdf
this is for an old vrm.
solid polys are not hype.

From the datasheet, section Component Selection Guidelines:

Bulk capacitor choices include aluminum electrolytic, OS
Con, Tantalum and even ceramic dielectrics. An aluminum electrolytic capacitor's ESR value is related to the case size with lower ESR available in larger case sizes. However, the equivalent series inductance (ESL) of these capacitors increases with case size and can reduce the usefulness of the capacitor to high slew-rate transient loading.

In short, lytics can boast low ESR when diameter is large enough, but the relatively high ESL prevents them to be used in hi-freq VRMs. Thanks KC8 for the datasheet, now I know why polys are better than lytics in VRMs.

Zandrax

[Newbie2]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

He's an electrical enginner. My father, an electrical enginner, thinks that they're marketing hype if used on things that don't require their use, like on areas other than the CPU VRM area. If the manufacturer needs to put on polymer capacitors to make their design stable, then that's okay.

Aluminum electrolytic caps are totally fine, since they are cheap caps that can be used for many purposes. Polymer caps are somewhat better in VRM usage on a motherboard.

For example, GIGABYTE's "Ultra Durable" motherboards with all polymer caps are over-enginnered. Having good-quality electrolytic caps on less-stressed areas of the motherboard and polymer caps on the CPU VRM will reduce cost, and still have good reliability.

[Newbie2]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

Also, he says that polymer caps are used as a cheap solution for a capacitor in a high frequency application. He says polymer caps are more expensive than aluminum electrolytic caps, but if used in a design which requires aluminum electrolytic caps the polymer caps won't be any more reliable.

Putting polymer caps in the place of aluminum electrolytic caps won't increase reliability by a large amount, my father says.

He's an electrical enginner, probably you guys are just people with soldering skills and a couple of caps, only replacing motherboard or power supply caps for a living.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

It's not marketing hype.
Solid polymers don't dry out or leak. -> FAR more reliable.
-> Go tell your daddy the 'enginner' that.

Why would someone that makes money only if they continue use electrolytic caps on motherboards think solid polymer are better?
-> Go ask your daddy the 'enginner' that.

Why don't you quit repeating what your daddy says and learn to think for yourself.

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[Newbie2]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

It's not marketing hype.
Solid polymers don't dry out or leak. -> FAR more reliable.
-> Go tell your daddy the 'enginner' that.

Why would someone that makes money only if they continue use electrolytic caps on motherboards think solid polymer are better?
-> Go ask your daddy the 'enginner' that.

Why don't you quit repeating what your daddy says and learn to think for yourself.

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I will.

Also, I don't have any electrical enginnering experience. My father does, and he has had his job for two decades (If I remember correctly), and before he went to college his hobby was electronics.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

I was trained as an electronics tech (ET) and that was my title but in reality only about 20-30% of my job. My actual job was Nuclear Reactor Operator (RO). To get qualified and certified I had to learn nuclear engineering and to cross-train in electrical and mechanical engineering as well as chemistry. I also had to get qualified and certified as an Electrician and a Mechanic. ET-RO's are supervisory over Mechanics and Electricians so they make us actually complete certification for their jobs in addition to our own. Thing is if I say what I did for a living people picture a control room and white coats. It's not like that at all. Power plants are hot, sweaty, dirty, and LOUD. The sensors and electronics that make up the control systems (the part of the complex that ET's are responsible for) are everywhere in the plant. I've worked in places where because of heat and humidity the stay time was 1.5 minutes.
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The general attitude of people in my profession is:
Engineers -> Know the theory.
Techs -> Know the reality.
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That's why your comments struck a nerve.
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[Newbie2]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

The general attitude of people in my profession is:
Engineers -> Know the theory.
Techs -> Know the reality.

I haven't always agreed to what my father said.

When I told him about the bad capacitor problem about faulty electrolyte being produced by Taiwanese capacitor manufacturers, he did not agree to the problem.

His theory was that people were either using cheap power supplies with high-ripple outputs that stressed the caps on the motherboard, or the case was poorly cooled or did not have enough circulation to get hot air out of the case, which high heat could of killed the caps.

Well, overheating of the caps and stressing the caps too much can both be plausible reasons to capacitor failure on motherboards. But, this isn't just happening on lets say 20 computers. This was happening around the world, and not everyone uses either cheap power supplies or poorly circulated cases, or both. Do a Google Image search on bad caps, and you'll see hundreds of bad cap pictures.

My father also believes that many of the pictures showing bad caps were made that way by the person who posted the image. He said that they could of took the caps out of the motherboard, applied reverse polarity voltage to kill them and make their vents bulge, put them back on the motherboard, and post a picture of Taiwanese crap caps.

Well, when we were visiting our relatives one of my uncles had a dead IBM computer with a Celeron 950MHz processor. All of the motherboard's capacitors had bulged and leaked, and the motherboard would just POST and quickly restart when powered up. The case was a good micro ATX case that appeared to have decent circulation. The power supply was of high quality (HIRPO brand, heavy). My uncle said it was the faulty electrolyte theory, my father said it was a cheap power supply or poor case circulation bringing on high heat.

[gonzo0815]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

To be an engineer or have any other fancy title will say absolute nothing about the knowledge someone has in a certain area.
Many electronic engineers i know don´t even know what low ERS means and that it does have any meaning. And most TV repair guys / electronic / IT technicians ignore it too, as they refuse to learn anything new ( and because good capacitors are expensive).
I have long given up to accept the opinion of professionals w/o making my own picture.

Your father is wrong, none of his short statement is true in it`s generalized form and it only made it clear, that he even won´t bother to get the picture and the knowledge to judge unbiased.
He has his theoretical believe system and he probably does not want to leave it.
It is laughable that someone should made this story / pictures up.
Electronic is complex, it is not all said with a few short sentences. And theory is usually only one part to make something work.

Nevertheless it is obvious, that badcaps can not blamed for anything, which goes wrong in the mass production of IT consumer good.

In any case you have to lock for the real causes and is is often the case that there is more then one fault.

Polymer capacitor are not the golden bullet for any problem, but they are a good tool in the hand of those who know about their strengths.
Apart from that, i agree, that you don´t need polymers in excellent designed boards like many Epox ones.
But when heat & ripple is a issue due to the design, polymers are an excellent choice.

I think you can`t discuss a topic like this with such general statements like "polymers are not needed" or "something is not designed for that" etc.
This is BS.
There is no sophisticated step for designing a VRM for electrolytic capacitors, or for polymers. Capacitors are chosen simply by what is already said: temperature, ripple current, frequency and space.
And no, todays polymer VRMS are not "high frequency". High frequency begins there, when MLCC is all what is needed and bulk capacitance would not be necessary by this amount.

If you have a problem to understand something, ask a detailed question and i am certain, that someone can give an appropriate answer.
But sure, none will respond endlessly on such unqualified, generalized repetitions of things which are already discussed into any detail here.

Sure i am here for a few years now and thus i have learned a lot from what we have discussed here.
But i have probably read many topic here, before i dared to ask questions. I know, that many of those here do already know more things, then you can ever learn at any fancy education facility but basically you have to learn what you want to know by yourself.

[Newbie2]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

My father says that my understanding of electrolytic capacitors is flawed. He says it doesn't matter what brand or origin of cap it is, it just has to meet manufacturer specification and work.

Well, a good quality Rubycon cap and a poor quality G-LUXON cap both will both work and do what they were put in to do. The G-LUXON cap's specifications may be good on the specification paper that G-LUXON issues. But, in the long run, the Rubycon cap will be still doing its job long after the G-LUXON cap has bulged, failed, and possibly damaged equipment.

He is also irritated by how I see capacitors. He says I discriminate between Taiwanese and Japanese capacitors, preferring Japanese capacitors for their "quality".

Well, for example, would you want a lemon (problematic car) for a car that keeps needing costly repair or a quality car that will last and work well?

Also, in my opinion, I think polymer caps on the newer motherboards is a good idea for long-term reliability. They don't have liquid electrolyte that is sensitive to drying out under high heat, and their ESR is usually lower. The only thing is that the capacitance they come in is lower, but that isn't much of an issue. All polymer caps on a motherboard is a great thing, but if the manufacturer wants to cut cost or make a less costly component then high quality (from good Japanese capacitor manufacturers such as Nichicon, Panasonic, Rubycon, United Chemicon, Sanyo, and even Hong Kong manufacturer SAMXON) aluminum electrolytic capacitors can go to less-stressed areas of the motherboard (around the PCI slots for example) and the polymer caps can go to a highly-stressed area of the motherboard, like the CPU VRM for example where high heat and high ripple can both be an issue.

I should say what I want to say, even if my father thinks what I say about capacitors and power supplies is total BS.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

The Engineers at the University of Maryland don't agree with your father.
http://www.calce.umd.edu/articles/ab...capacitors.htm

That's going on 4.5 years old.
It's not like it's new news in the electronics industry.

There are also references to numerous other documents BY ENGINEERS that say what we are telling you is correct.

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You said your dad has been doing this job for 20 years. Sounds to me like he went to school, got a job, and then didn't keep up with what's going on outside of his little circle.

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[PCBONEZ]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

Print that out and hand it to him.

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[PCBONEZ]

Re: abit vp6 poly mod

CALCE stands for "Center for Advanced Life Cycle Engineering".
http://www.calce.umd.edu/index.html
If you will note the address: It's part of the University or Maryland.

One of their specialties is failure analysis.
http://www.calce.umd.edu/general/Facilities/failure.htm

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