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    What does ripple current mean?

    What does "ripple current" mean?


    It always bugs me whenever I think about it. I know that the definition (from panasonic website):

    • Ripple Current
      Ripple current is the rms value of alternating current flowing through a capacitor. This current causes an internal temperature rise due to power losses within the capacitor.

    • ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance)
      Equivalent series resistance causes heat generation within the capacitor when AC ripple current flows through the capacitor. Maximum ESR is normally specified at 120Hz, 20°C.


    So, there is a current flowing through a capacitor, and its value is alternated. The higher the rms value of this ripple current the worse the effect to the capacitor. The internal heat of capacitor will rise as the result of resistance. So this is the use of low esr caps, it's allowed the ripple current flowing through with minimal generated heat in the caps thanks to its low resistance..

    The higher the ripple current rate for the capacitor, the more "strong" the caps can sustain the higher excessive ripple current, and the lower the heat within the caps.

    Do I understand it right?


    What happens if the ripple current is higher beyond the allowed value? Will it change into the heat instead of flowing through the caps?

    And why the caps should allow the ripple current? Isn't its job to smooth the ripple? If the smoothing jobs doesn't run good what is the effect to voltage? I mean, if the ampere decreased, the voltage will increase to keep the same wattage, right?

    I know the relation between the capacitance and transient performance, but is there any relation between low esr and charging/discharging time for a capacitor? What does impedance involve here?

    What is more important, the ripple current rate or the low esr rate? Or does the low esr rate automatically translate to higher ripple current rate?

    What the relation between capacitance and impedance. Now I'm completely lost about impedance, what does impedance mean?

    Did I ask the same question again and again? lol.. Sorry... Your explanation will be appreciated to shed a lot of confusion I have...


    Maybe this is all just a simple theory. So, pls help me to understand it simply better...

    Thanks...
    days are so short when you actually do something..

    #2
    Re: What does ripple current mean?

    Good Qs, yanz! And you have a lot of it right.

    In a switching power supply, the voltage coming out of the O/P rectifier and into the O/P inductor is a positive-polarity square wave. The O/P inductor and O/P capacitor(s) filter that into a DC voltage. The current through the inductor is a DC level (which goes to the load) with triangle-shaped AC current riding on the DC level. The AC current is due to the charging of the inductor (during the switch "On" time) and discharging of the inductor (during the switch "Off" time). If things are designed properly and operating normally, the inductor never "fully" charges (saturation), nor discharges fully. Almost all of the AC current, several amps rms, goes through the O/P capacitors rather than to the load (if it did, the ripple voltage would be fairly high). While a capacitor's DC resistance is very high, its impedance to AC depends on the frequency of the AC. In the 100KHz range, that impedance is milliohms (thousandths of an ohm). By way of contrast, the effective resistance on the load in the computer is much higher (e.g., if the O/P voltage is 2V and the load current is 20A, the DC "resistance" is 100 milliohms). So it is entirely normal for the capacitors to be conducting several amps of ripple current, as this is due to the capacitors' smoothing action.

    What is impedance? In a capacitor, it has 3 basic components in series with each other: an ideal capacitor; the ESL, equivalent series inductance, of the leads; the equivalent series resistance of the leads, the foils, and the electrolyte. Impedance is the vector sum of the capacitive reactance [1/(6.28xFxC)] X(C), the inductive reactance (6.28xFxL) X(L), and the ESR. At relatively low frequencies, X(C) is basically the impedance. As frequency increases, the impedance falls until the ESR is greater than the X(C), and the ESR is basically the impedance. As frequency continues to rise, the X(L) becomes greater than the ESR, and the impedance is basically the X(L). P/Ss and VRMs operate in the frequency range where the impedance and ESR are approximately the same.

    If the capacitor is conducting ripple current, it is dissipating power (I^2)(ESR), which is heat. The higher the ripple current, the more the heat. If you exceed the ripple current rating, the cap will overheat, unless the ripple current is so high that hydrogen gas is being generated. So the failure mechanisms with excessive ripple current are electrolyte evaporation and evaporation- or gas-related venting.
    PeteS in CA

    Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
    ****************************
    To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
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      #3
      Re: What does ripple current mean?

      I know the relation between the capacitance and transient performance, but is there any relation between low esr and charging/discharging time for a capacitor?
      The rate of charging or discharging a capacitor is the product of the capacitance and the resistance through which it is charged or discharged. The ESR of the cap only becomes relevant when it becomes a significant part of the overall resistance in the circuit. In a P/S O/P circuit. however, the charging and discharging rate are determined by the I/P voltage to the inductor, the inductor itself, and the load current.
      What is more important, the ripple current rate or the low esr rate? Or does the low esr rate automatically translate to higher ripple current rate?
      The ripple current rating is related to the ESR, the stability of the electrolyte, and the ability of the cap to dissipate heat to the ambient environment. If you are comparing caps of identical case size and temperature rating, it basically comes down to ESR.
      PeteS in CA

      Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
      ****************************
      To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
      ****************************

      Comment


        #4
        Re: What does ripple current mean?

        I had an instructor way back who used the electricity to water analogy.
        It works surprisingly well.

        Einstien rolls over in grave.
        Jim

        Comment


          #5
          Re: What does ripple current mean?

          A good descriptions Pete. I have been wondering if it would be profitable for this forum to create a VRM block diagram/equivalent circuit with input caps, converter, output inductor, output caps(electro and ceramic) and load. To include ESR and ESL, conversion ratio (12V in/1.6V out) and how the load on the input caps is changed by the ratio. How the ratio changes the effective ESR need of the input caps compared with the output caps etc.

          Pictures can help.
          What do you think? Can you supply such a diagram?
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            #6
            Re: What does ripple current mean?

            Pete, that explains a lot, thanks! While i feel i only understand 70% of it, it answer a lot of my initial question.

            Pictures can help.
            That would be excelent..

            I had an instructor way back who used the electricity to water analogy.
            It works surprisingly well.
            Yup i use it to explain to some friends of mine, but when it is about pawor factor, water analogy doesnt help.
            days are so short when you actually do something..

            Comment


              #7
              Re: What does ripple current mean?

              Originally posted by yanz View Post
              What does "ripple current" mean?



              The higher the ripple current rate for the capacitor, the more "strong" the caps can sustain the higher excessive ripple current, and the lower the heat within the caps.
              Is this statement correct?


              Hey guys, I am trying to do my research on getting the right cap for my TV psb repair. I bought some caps online here and I assume the will fit and are correct. I went by Farad rating and Voltage and usually there was only one choice.

              So reason Im here in this thread now is that I used this http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/ to find ripple current and specs on CapXon caps that are original to my board.

              Now Im finding that the Rubycon caps I ordered here have higher (by a lot) ripple current ratings. I just want to be sure of what is important when replacing a cap and selecting the right one.

              farad and voltage rating are the biggest factors to go by I understand, but how is a certain series of a cap Important?

              My CapXon are all KF series except two GL. I also have 2 united chemi-con KY on the PSB

              Thanks again for all the help. I am certainly a knowledge seeker and like to continue learning.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: What does ripple current mean?

                Higher ripple rating than the original is fine, not lower.
                Never stop learning
                Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                Inverter testing using old CFL:
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

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                http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                TV Factory reset codes listing:
                http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

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                  #9
                  Re: What does ripple current mean?

                  Room for a Quick question guys?...errmh what happens if the ripple current is beyond the permissible value for a capacitor? Does it change into heat instead of flowing through capacitor?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: What does ripple current mean?

                    the capacitor will fail to smooth the signal out to the extent of the excess,
                    in the case of computers this could make them unstable at best and even cause damage.

                    it may cause the cap to heat up, but high frequency on a cap with poor esr is the usual cause of heating.
                    caps are complex

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: What does ripple current mean?

                      Originally posted by Queen Daisy View Post
                      Room for a Quick question guys?...errmh what happens if the ripple current is beyond the permissible value for a capacitor? Does it change into heat instead of flowing through capacitor?
                      Well, it comes down to Ohm's and Watt's Laws. A capacitor has a finite Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR). "Ripple Current" (IR)is the AC current being conducted through the capacitor. So:

                      + (ESR) * (IR) = The AC voltage across the capacitor. For a PSU filter capacitor, that is the ripple voltage on the particular output.

                      + (ESR) * (IR ^2) = The power dissipated by the capacitor. Dissipated power means heat.

                      So, excessive ripple current can cause out of spec ripple on an output, and it could lead to premature failure, due to the capacitor venting its electrolyte or just drying out. In the extreme (I mean extreme like Torquemada) a REALLY high ripple current could fuse the lead of the capacitor. Fusing the lead almost certainly would not happen in the real world (But I've done it, ).
                      PeteS in CA

                      Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
                      ****************************
                      To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
                      ****************************

                      Comment

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