Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

I just wanted to say that the video card issue I think is resolved. We installed official AMD drivers (17.4.4). The latest ones wouldn't install properly but I think they were beta. We watched the temp with GPU-Z. It was stable at 45C ~ 48C. GPU-Z showed the fan speed percentage at 20% but the RPMs at 0. We downloaded Furmark and stress tested it. The GPU reached a max temperature of 81C and the fan speed 64%, but was stable.

He is using an official paid-for copy of Windows 10, it was not pirated. He's going to format, reinstall, and use the AMD drivers I downloaded. If the PC still hangs, we're going to start testing RAM and maybe solid state. I don't think Furmark had an option to test the RAM on the video card and with a game, I'm sure it could use more of the video cards RAM than Furmark was using.

I thought it was a little odd though that GPU-Z (and the AMD control catalyst) reported the fan speed percentage at 20% but the fans weren't spinning. The AMD CC reported the fans spinning at 1,200 RPM. Even when we set it to manual, they didn't actually start to spin until we set it to around 1,700RPM.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Out of curiosity, what would happen if I downloaded the MSI BIOS for the R9 380 4GB video card and flash it on this PowerColor R9 380 video card? The RAM on both cards is Hynix...Would that break everything and be a stupid idea?

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Perhaps MSI Afterburner

Very bad idea, except if you know what you are doing...

The Afterburner can fuck up everything - yes, also the fan controller. And cause you more problems than it's worth...

The fan itself can be controlled within the AMD control panel/Radeon Settings: Games -> Global Settings -> Overdrive.
There you can also monitor the card...

nVidia had something similar years ago but they removed this out of the driver package. And I wouldn't trust them further than I can throw that leather jacket...

Out of curiosity, what would happen if I downloaded the MSI BIOS for the R9 380 4GB video card and flash it on this PowerColor R9 380 video card? The RAM on both cards is Hynix...Would that break everything and be a stupid idea?

Yes, that would possibly break the card.
Because different Voltage Controllers...

But aren't there BIOS editors that work for Tonga??

AMD is weird in this area. Sometimes they allow the BIOS to be edited, sometimes they don't...

I thought it was a little odd though that GPU-Z (and the AMD control catalyst) reported the fan speed percentage at 20% but the fans weren't spinning. The AMD CC reported the fans spinning at 1,200 RPM. Even when we set it to manual, they didn't actually start to spin until we set it to around 1,700RPM.

Semi Fanless for the Win!!

You find that bullshit everywhere these days...
Power Supplys started this (Seasonic and Corsair)...
And now even some reviewers criticise an 80plus Gold (or better) PSU if it doesn't have a semi fanless mode...

As someone from some PSU Company once said:
We don't need quality fans, we have Semi Fanless!!!
And good quality fans are expansive as hell...
Shit fans cost next to nothing...

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Very bad idea, except if you know what you are doing...

The Afterburner can fuck up everything - yes, also the fan controller. And cause you more problems than it's worth...

The fan itself can be controlled within the AMD control panel/Radeon Settings: Games -> Global Settings -> Overdrive.
There you can also monitor the card...

nVidia had something similar years ago but they removed this out of the driver package. And I wouldn't trust them further than I can throw that leather jacket...


Yes, that would possibly break the card.
Because different Voltage Controllers...

But aren't there BIOS editors that work for Tonga??

AMD is weird in this area. Sometimes they allow the BIOS to be edited, sometimes they don't...


Semi Fanless for the Win!!

You find that bullshit everywhere these days...
Power Supplys started this (Seasonic and Corsair)...
And now even some reviewers criticise an 80plus Gold (or better) PSU if it doesn't have a semi fanless mode...

As someone from some PSU Company once said:
We don't need quality fans, we have Semi Fanless!!!
And good quality fans are expansive as hell...
Shit fans cost next to nothing...

This semi fanless thing doesn't seem right. I understand the concept I believe, but this is the way I understand it:

There's something called Intelligent Fan Control II. This is what controls the fan speeds. It essentially says something stupid like if the GPU temp isn't 76 degrees C, don't turn on the fans (something along those lines). We can use an editor (even a hex editor I guess) to change the target GPU temperature from 76 degrees C to something lower. But I don't understand why the video card itself reports the fan are spinning at 20% (1,200 RPM) when they're not at all. If the temp is under 76C, should the video card report the fans spinning at 0% (0 RPM)?

And yes, there are editors for this BIOS. I also found a newer BIOS (same version as the MSI). I was just curious as to what would happen. I wasn't sure what the differences, hardware wise, where. Thanks for explaining that to me!

The latest VBIOS I found for this card is 015.049.000.009.000000. His video card is currently running 015.049.000.000.000000. I just can't find a changelog anywheres. I don't get what the 015.049.000.009 update fixes. I've been reading a long forum and it might have something to do with the fans, but it also might have something to do with allowing higher voltages for overclocking.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

The BIOS reports are sometimes fudged - they don't always bother updating the BIOS reporting to reflect the changes in hardware. Also, for a good monitoring program, try HWINFO32/64.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Okay, so the BIOS reports might not be correct. That would make sense. We were looking at how the fans are being powered. It's just a basic circuit board with nothing but traces. The header that connects to the video card powers one fan and then the traces go to that header to the other fan. We were thinking maybe the current wasn't enough and the fans weren't kicking on when they were supposed to be. To clarify, we were thinking if there was only one fan, when the AMD CC was reporting 1,200 RPM or 20% fan speed, that one fan would be running at around 1,200 RPM, but because there's two fans, neither spin at all until around 1,700 RPM.

I think that VBIOS update returns the video card to the old way of doing it, where instead of turning the fans on once they hit a certain temp, they're always running, just a bit slower. When the temps do hit a certain temp, the fans definitely spin up, so I think it might be working the way it's supposed to, after reading what you just wrote.

[momaka]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

We're looking at the R9 380 fans. First one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, turns off. Second one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, kicks off, first one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, turns off. Second one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, turns off. And it just repeats like this the whole time.

That's normal for many new video cards. They don't run their fans fully until they reach a certain temperature (which usually is too high, IMO).

Maybe it's not gotten hot enough yet?

Yup.

Very bad idea, except if you know what you are doing...

Well that applies for any program that can control the fans. The key is to not play with settings that you don't know what they do.

The Afterburner can fuck up everything - yes, also the fan controller. And cause you more problems than it's worth...

If you have a video card that never turns on its fans until it burns you, that's a guaranteed failure. In that case, might as well "try stuff" with MSI Afterburner or other software and get it exchanged when it burns... because it would do that anyways with a stupid fan curve.

The fan itself can be controlled within the AMD control panel/Radeon Settings: Games -> Global Settings -> Overdrive.
There you can also monitor the card...

Ever since AMD started using .NET for their Control Center (which was a super long time ago), I've been avoiding it whenever possible (typically, I just installed the drivers without ATI CC). CC is not very good for low-level stuff. Even fan control is wonky compared to what other programs out there offer.

You find that bullshit everywhere these days...
Power Supplys started this (Seasonic and Corsair)...
And now even some reviewers criticise an 80plus Gold (or better) PSU if it doesn't have a semi fanless mode...

Yes, I'm not a big fan on semi-fanless either. Seems like just another excuse for the industry to have more hardware fail (i.e. planned obsolescence).

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

That's normal for many new video cards. They don't run their fans fully until they reach a certain temperature (which usually is too high, IMO)....

I agree with everything you said there. I'm thinking of using that Tonga video editor to change the target temp, because I feel that 78C is just too high.

I see the MSI R9 380 has some tighter timings at the higher speeds:

# PowerColor R9 380 Memory Timings:
#
CCC Overdrive Limits
 GPU Clock: 1200 MHz
 Memory Clock: 1750 MHz
GPU Clocks
 300 MHz, 483 MHz, 755 MHz, 839 MHz
 880 MHz, 913 MHz, 948 MHz, 980 MHz
Memory Clocks
 150 MHz, 300 MHz, 700 MHz, 1475 MHz
Memory Support
 4096 MB, GDDR5, Autodetect 
 4096 MB, GDDR5, Elpida EDW4032BABG
 4096 MB, GDDR5, Hynix H5GC4H24AJR
Memory Timings (Elpida)
 tRCDW-tRCDWA-tRCDR-tRCDRA-tRC-tCL-tRFC
 200 MHz: 0-3-2-3-7-6-12
 400 MHz: 0-3-5-5-15-7-25
 800 MHz: 5-5-11-11-31-11-51
 1500 MHz: 17-17-22-22-60-19-97
 1625 MHz: 19-19-24-24-65-20-105
 1750 MHz: 21-21-26-26-70-21-113
Memory Timings (Hynix)
 tRCDW-tRCDWA-tRCDR-tRCDRA-tRC-tCL-tRFC
 400 MHz: 4-4-5-5-18-7-39
 800 MHz: 7-7-11-11-34-10-79
 1500 MHz: 14-14-20-20-61-18-148
 1625 MHz: 16-16-23-23-68-18-164
 1750 MHz: 17-17-24-24-72-19-173


# MSI R9 380 Memory Timings:
#
CCC Overdrive Limits
 GPU Clock: 1200 MHz
 Memory Clock: 1750 MHz
GPU Clocks
 300 MHz, 473 MHz, 752 MHz, 837 MHz
 879 MHz, 912 MHz, 947 MHz, 980 MHz
Memory Clocks
 150 MHz, 300 MHz, 700 MHz, 1425 MHz
Memory Support
 4096 MB, GDDR5, Autodetect 
 4096 MB, GDDR5, Hynix H5GC4H24AJR
Memory Timings (Hynix)
 tRCDW-tRCDWA-tRCDR-tRCDRA-tRC-tCL-tRFC
 400 MHz: 4-4-5-5-18-7-39
 800 MHz: 7-7-11-11-34-10-79
 1425 MHz: 14-14-20-20-59-17-141
 1500 MHz: 14-14-20-20-61-18-148
 1750 MHz: 17-17-24-24-72-19-173

1425 MHz and higher is where the changes start. I see people have been changing the timings for the PowerColor using that editor to get more hashes for bitcoin mining (they're older posts), but now that his video card is fixed, I wonder if some mods like that would be a good idea. There's usually more to RAM than just changing the timing though. A lot of times, when you change the timing, you need to adjust the voltage. I'm betting the PowerColor uses different voltages for the Hynix than the MSI card uses, so maybe changing the timing isn't a great idea.

Changing the target temp to something a bit lower though to get the fan to kick on sooner might not be a bad idea though and that's something we might do....

Originally, he had some guy redo the PC. They also downloaded the highest driver version from AMDs website. I don't think the guy actually read the message that pops up after it's done installing. The newest version (which I believe is a Beta version) says there was an error installing the drivers. It'd be easy to miss. One could easily mistake it for your drivers are properly installed, if they didn't actually read the message, like we did. With those drivers, the fans never seemed to kick on.

It wasn't until we downloaded the a-little-bit-older drivers that properly installed, where we able to get the fans to kick on when they were supposed to. This makes me think that was the issue. For some reason, whatever wasn't properly installed with the first drivers was somehow in control of turning the fans on / off. What was odd, while the drivers were installing, when the screen flashed, the fans would kick on. It wasn't until that message appeared at the end that they'd stop and not turn back on.

With the other drivers, same screen pops up, but instead of saying there was an error, it says your display drivers are properly installed. Both messages require a restart.

The generic Microsoft drivers are the ones that were alternating the fans. One turns on for maybe 5 seconds, the other one turns on, the first one turns right off, and then it repeats.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Just a suggestion: don't "upgrade" to a newer BIOS unless the manufacturer tells you it is ok.
Too big risk to brick the card.
If you want to make some changes to the BIOS then just use the one you have now.
GPU-Z can be used to dump the BIOS from your card:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

It can then optionally be uploaded to their database:
https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Just a suggestion: don't "upgrade" to a newer BIOS unless the manufacturer tells you it is ok.
Too big risk to brick the card.
If you want to make some changes to the BIOS then just use the one you have now.
GPU-Z can be used to dump the BIOS from your card:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

It can then optionally be uploaded to their database:
https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/

Okay Per Hansson. Do these video cards use the BIOS chips that computers generally use? Those 24 or 25 SPI / I2C chips? If so, I got a reader / writer in case the BIOS flash does go horribly wrong. We won't upgrade the BIOS though. But we'll still need to flash if we change anything in that BIOS.

I was thinking of downloading both the current BIOS and the new one, and then dumping the current one and comparing them. That'd verify the current one and the one I downloaded are in fact the same. Then I might use that Tonga editor to figure out what's different about the new version. You know, try to figure out what they changed.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Well that applies for any program that can control the fans. The key is to not play with settings that you don't know what they do.

Yes but they don't do it as bad as it is possible for Afterburner.
That digs very deep into the system and can cause problems with games and other software...
Things like clockrates are totally messed up. Like doesn't clock down in Windows or doesn't raise the clock for games.

If you have a video card that never turns on its fans until it burns you, that's a guaranteed failure. In that case, might as well "try stuff" with MSI Afterburner or other software and get it exchanged when it burns... because it would do that anyways with a stupid fan curve.

True but the question is if the fan controller of the card is OK or if the fans are failing...
My guess would be that the fans are failing.
In best case a bit of oil for this kind of application may help (at least for a while)...
Or just replace the fan with other ones...

Ever since AMD started using .NET for their Control Center (which was a super long time ago), I've been avoiding it whenever possible (typically, I just installed the drivers without ATI CC). CC is not very good for low-level stuff. Even fan control is wonky compared to what other programs out there offer.

They don't use that no more and got rid of it again. Now they use Qt...

Well the others use (more or less) the same control panel they did around 20 years ago

Yes, I'm not a big fan on semi-fanless either. Seems like just another excuse for the industry to have more hardware fail (i.e. planned obsolescence).

Yes, and also that they don't need to use decent fans because of that shit.
The sad thing is that the uninformed populus believes that semi fanless might be an advantage...

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

If that's the reason they don't use decent fans, that explains a lot (the semi-fanless statement). The fans weren't failing though and that was part of the reason for asking how to run them at full strength, for testing purposes. Was it something physically wrong with the video card? Was it something physically wrong with the PC? These were questions that we needed answered. As it turned out, it was something with the drivers and / or a combination of the drivers and the programs he had installed to control fan speeds.

A fresh install of Windows 10 didn't fix the issue, but we originally tried the same official AMD drivers he installed, which errored out during installation. I believe they just mistook the error out message for a Your drivers were successfully installed message.

Installing the other driver from AMD's website (a little older) fixed the issue. As soon as we got the successful installation, we saw the fans kicking on when the temp reached a certain point.

He will more than likely be needing newer fans sooner or later though, if he keeps running it the way he's been running it. Side completely off and a big box fan blowing air into the side of the case. When I originally got it and we replaced his liquid cooling unit, we replaced the radiator (it was a closed loop system) and it was nice and clean. The other day when he was here, I looked in there and it was completely covered with dust! A full layer and I said we needed to blow that off and something was wrong. That's when he told me about the box fan and his place not being the cleanest. I told him he really wanted to keep the inside clean if he could. Nothing kills fans quicker than that dust!

[Per Hansson]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Well you have not said what card it is exactly.
But if my guess is correct: https://www.msi.com/Graphics-card/R9...#hero-overview

Then why not use the utilities that MSI provides for it?

MSI Live Update 6
• Online update BIOS/Driver/Firmware/Utility. • Live Monitor auto-detects and suggests the latest BIOS/Driver/Utilities information.

MSI Afterburner
...Additionally, the software's automatic fan speed control has received a lot of praise from enthusiasts all over the world. With MSI's "Afterburner", the decision to run the fan quietly or for high-performance is in your hands!

[momaka]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

True but the question is if the fan controller of the card is OK or if the fans are failing...
My guess would be that the fans are failing.
In best case a bit of oil for this kind of application may help (at least for a while)...
Or just replace the fan with other ones...

What i meant to say in that post was that if you have a video card that never runs its fans due to design (not fault with the fans), then clearly it is easiest to do something about the fans on the software-level - i.e. force them on at a certain speed in idle and maybe several different speeds ah higher loads, depending on temperature.

In regards to oiling a fan: you can actually make a fan last longer than it did from the factory - even the very crappy fans. The fan(s) just have to cleaned and oiled properly. And this only works for sleeve bearing fans, which seem to have been phased out lately. All I see now is either decent quality ball bearing fans or crappy FDBs (fluid-dynamic bearings), which are essentially sealed sleeve bearings that are impossible to service unless you cut them in pieces with a dremel tool or a drill. I've actually done that, and have managed to save quite a few of those fans. Unfortunately, I still can't get them fully opened, so they cannot be made to last as long as a properly oiled regular sleeve bearing.

They don't use that no more and got rid of it again. Now they use Qt...

Well the others use (more or less) the same control panel they did around 20 years ago

Good.
I hate stuff built on Net Lamework. Always seem to be sluggish. And I hate it even more when I am trying to use the same software in Windows XP, as XP does not natively come with .NET... and .NET tends to install some stupid start-up processes, making my PCs slower unless I disable them (which I always do).

Yes, and also that they don't need to use decent fans because of that shit.
The sad thing is that the uninformed populus believes that semi fanless might be an advantage...

Add modular cables to that list too. As if a fully modular PSU is better than a semi-modular one. But my question is, why the hell would you want your motherboard's 24-pin and 4-pin CPU cables to be modular? Isn't this what every standard ATX/mATX motherboard use nowadays anyways? -Some of these stupid trends need to die off already.

At least with the semi-fanless designs, the heatsinks and the PCs themselves tend to clog less with dust. So I will give them that much.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

If that's the reason they don't use decent fans, that explains a lot (the semi-fanless statement).

The Irony is that the company now seems to use kinda decent fans...
And it was a Corsair Guy in a German Forum (I believe it was Hardwareluxx) who said that they don't need high quality fans because of semi fanless.

And that's the issue. High Quality fans are expansive as shit. With 2 fans expect to pay something around 20-50€ more for good fans...

That's why nobody does use really good fans. They are just THAT expansive.
And don't forget the lubricant. You want to use a very high quality lubricant and not just enough for a year or two...

The fans weren't failing though and that was part of the reason for asking how to run them at full strength, for testing purposes.

You open up Radeon Settings, click on games. Than Global Settings. Global Wattman (or Overdrive, depending on Card) And there you have somewhere something to adjust the fan speed.
You adjust them to wherever you want, hit apply and it is applied. No need for external software at all

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Well you have not said what card it is exactly.
But if my guess is correct: https://www.msi.com/Graphics-card/R9...#hero-overview

Then why not use the utilities that MSI provides for it?

I thought I did say what card it was. The PowerColor R9 380. I had found firmware for the MSI that had different timings, despite them being the same model card. I saw people were changing the timings on these cards using the firmware editor. He's a gamer, so maybe that might be something worth trying in the future, now that we got it running stable.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

In regards to oiling a fan: you can actually make a fan last longer than it did from the factory - even the very crappy fans. The fan(s) just have to cleaned and oiled properly. And this only works for sleeve bearing fans, which seem to have been phased out lately. All I see now is either decent quality ball bearing fans or crappy FDBs (fluid-dynamic bearings), which are essentially sealed sleeve bearings that are impossible to service unless you cut them in pieces with a dremel tool or a drill. I've actually done that, and have managed to save quite a few of those fans. Unfortunately, I still can't get them fully opened, so they cannot be made to last as long as a properly oiled regular sleeve bearing....

What oil do you use for the fans? Maybe the ones I've tried had the bearings that you said you couldn't do it with, but at best, I get maybe 3 extra months out of the fan before it seizes again from all the dust. I've tried it a few times on laptop fans. I researched for better oil, but I guess the stuff the manufacturers use is a bit of a secret.

Add modular cables to that list too. As if a fully modular PSU is better than a semi-modular one. But my question is, why the hell would you want your motherboard's 24-pin and 4-pin CPU cables to be modular? Isn't this what every standard ATX/mATX motherboard use nowadays anyways? -Some of these stupid trends need to die off already...

I think the modular cables for the 4-pin and 24-pin would be for those people that have show cases. Sometimes, they like to change their wires around a bit or get shorter or longer ones (which can help with hiding the wires, etc).

I've seen a case where the guy had some wires that had some sort of metallic looking shield around each wire. Where it connected to the PSU, it screwed in. It looked kinda nice.

[momaka]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

What oil do you use for the fans? Maybe the ones I've tried had the bearings that you said you couldn't do it with, but at best, I get maybe 3 extra months out of the fan before it seizes again from all the dust.

It's not that important what oil you use (just DO NOT use grease). Car engine oil is fine. What is VERY important is how you oil the fan. Most people just pop the rubber cap and put a drop of oil, but that is very ineffective and lazy method.

To oil a fan properly, you have to take it fully apart - that is, separate the rotor (fan blade assembly) from the stator (the fan case). Typically, most cheap sleeve bearings just have a plastic "C" clip/washer on the shaft to hold the fan blade assembly in place. You just remove that, and the fan can be taken apart.

The most important part is cleaning the sleeve bearing. I take a drill bit that is a few sizes smaller than the fan shaft and rub the drill bit back and forth in the sleeve bearing opening. Then force tiny IPA-soaked paper towel balls through the sleeve to clean all of the grime inside.

Using a drill bit or something slightly abrasive to clean the bearing is key. This cleans the build up of shaft/bearing material debris, which in many cases is what causes a fan to seize. It also creates microscopic grooves parallel to the shaft of the fan (and perpendicular to the turning motion of the shaft when the fan is spinning). So when you put oil in the sleeve bearing, it fills in those micro-grooves and essentially they act like tiny oil reservoirs, keeping the bearing lubricated for much longer. The concept is somewhat similar to how a rifle bearing works.

Doing this will make even the cheapest sleeve bearing fans last many years.

I think the modular cables for the 4-pin and 24-pin would be for those people that have show cases. Sometimes, they like to change their wires around a bit or get shorter or longer ones (which can help with hiding the wires, etc).

Ah, makes sense now. I've seen some fancy cables like that at my previous job - some red/black cloth-covered cables. They looked neat indeed. But I still prefer my high-power cables to be soldered and not modular. The connectors add too much resistance and are just another failure point.

On the other hand, modular PSUs at least allow me to get rid of SATA power cables and only keep my Molex.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

I thought I did say what card it was. The PowerColor R9 380. I had found firmware for the MSI that had different timings, despite them being the same model card. I saw people were changing the timings on these cards using the firmware editor. He's a gamer, so maybe that might be something worth trying in the future, now that we got it running stable.

Ah sorry I missed that

EDIT: Btw it's pretty common with a dual BIOS design on AMD's graphics cards, but guess your's don't have it?
(There should be a switch on the card to select which chip is active if it does).

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Ah sorry I missed that

EDIT: Btw it's pretty common with a dual BIOS design on AMD's graphics cards, but guess your's don't have it?
(There should be a switch on the card to select which chip is active if it does).

We saw no switch and I did take it apart enough to get the circuit board, so I don't think this has dual BIOSes. I've seen dual BIOSes for motherboards, but never for video cards. I generally go for the nVidia type of video cards personally. Do the newer nVidia cards do the dual BIOS for the video cards as well or is this mainly an AMD video card thing?

Thanks Per Hansson!