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Old 06-04-2017, 05:11 PM   #1
jazzie366
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Default So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

So a company I had tried to make a deal with about a year ago just contacted me again to try again and make a deal with, only difference is the price is extremely low.

They are offering me 2200uF 25V 105C capacitors for $0.05 a piece....

Most companies are about 0.15 each for the same, factory direct.

I'm tempted obviously, and they hint a lot at that they make capacitors for CapXon... so I guess that's a sorta plus?

Also, they have paperwork that they show fro ROHS, CE(???), and ISO:9001 and 14001. So that's a plus as well.

I'm not sure what to do as if they are the OEM for capxon and their caps aren't the most shit, but are quite cheap, maybe it's not the worst idea to just run them under the manufacturer spec and I should have no problems?

Not sure what to do, tell me what you guys think.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:02 PM   #2
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Get a sample and test ? Perhaps a batch that has failed QC they are trying to sell on quickly. Although they could ship decent trials and then swap out the poor poor quality to full fill the order.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

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Get a sample and test ? Perhaps a batch that has failed QC they are trying to sell on quickly. Although they could ship decent trials and then swap out the poor poor quality to full fill the order.
I was thinking they'd do something like that, I'll probably order a sample, because for 5 cents a cap, I could care less what quality they are as long as they last a decent amount of time and heat.
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Old 06-04-2017, 06:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Seems suspicious you tried to deal with them, and now a year later, have an offer that seems to good to be true.
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

samples will probably be "golden samples"
search that term!
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzie366 View Post
So a company I had tried to make a deal with about a year ago just contacted me again to try again and make a deal with, only difference is the price is extremely low.

They are offering me 2200uF 25V 105C capacitors for $0.05 a piece....

Most companies are about 0.15 each for the same, factory direct.

I'm tempted obviously, and they hint a lot at that they make capacitors for CapXon... so I guess that's a sorta plus?

Also, they have paperwork that they show fro ROHS, CE(???), and ISO:9001 and 14001. So that's a plus as well.

I'm not sure what to do as if they are the OEM for capxon and their caps aren't the most shit, but are quite cheap, maybe it's not the worst idea to just run them under the manufacturer spec and I should have no problems?

Not sure what to do, tell me what you guys think.
Any manufacturer that is willing to make caps for Capxon is to be avoided if you are considering buying from them. I do not understand your obsession with these CRAP chinese companies thinking that they can turn a sows ear into a silk purse. What is the name of the company that called you?
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

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Originally Posted by Sparkey55 View Post
Any manufacturer that is willing to make caps for Capxon is to be avoided if you are considering buying from them. I do not understand your obsession with these CRAP chinese companies thinking that they can turn a sows ear into a silk purse. What is the name of the company that called you?
My thought exactly....anyone OEM'ing for CapXon would be a NO-GO in my shop.
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Old 06-05-2017, 12:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

I was a poor college kid when I went to the grocery store. I found a cheap package of bacon. It had a little window to see one piece of bacon. Looked good to me and was half price compared to other stores. When I got it home, I found one nice piece of bacon in front of the window and thirty strips of nothing but white fat behind that nice piece.

Later I found some Hungarian bacon in a can at a gas station that was cheap but good. They got my business for bacon.
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:20 AM   #9
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

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I was a poor college kid when I went to the grocery store. I found a cheap package of bacon. It had a little window to see one piece of bacon. Looked good to me and was half price compared to other stores. When I got it home, I found one nice piece of bacon in front of the window and thirty strips of nothing but white fat behind that nice piece.

Later I found some Hungarian bacon in a can at a gas station that was cheap but good. They got my business for bacon.
Bacon goes swell with Beans&Rice. Yum Yum
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:38 AM   #10
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Yum Yum indeed.

The lesson is transferable though. There are people that will sell you the garbage off the cutting room floor and still sleep good at night.
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Old 06-09-2017, 12:37 AM   #11
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

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Originally Posted by Sparkey55 View Post
Any manufacturer that is willing to make caps for Capxon is to be avoided if you are considering buying from them. I do not understand your obsession with these CRAP chinese companies thinking that they can turn a sows ear into a silk purse. What is the name of the company that called you?
Company's name is Glan, they seem to want to make photoflash caps mainly.

Also, my obsession is because I'm trying to find cheap components that aren't Nichicon expensive, that would work in a situation where if used properly, they'd last the service life of what they're needing to be used in. Also, it's because lots of people near me use Xicon caps (rebranded Lelons) and they fail all over the place in high heat environments, they are putting them inside of vacuum tube amps that run like furnaces inside. So they dry up and fail in about ~3-7 years. They also put them in as replacements for tone caps, which is a big nono as tone caps I wouldn't even use crap caps with.

However, for filtering I'd happily use cheaper caps, as for two 3000uF 50V CDE screw terminal caps, they cost 30$ for a pair, which is ludicrous when you can go and outsource for much cheaper. I'm trying to find something decent quality that won't break the bank. The only other thing I'd use these for is fixing small things like DVD players. I had a Sony dvd player from ~ 09 come in, it had a failed "Elecon" cap, thing failed mid use too. I recapped the psu with Marcon CE-SE caps and some SamWha and a couple NIC. I know the SamWha might sound stupid, but when someone wants to pay as little as 15-30$ to get their player fixed because new ones at walmart are so cheap, who wants to pay for premium components on something that will be outdated in a few years and inevitably get replaced? If I use cheaper components, I just oversize them. Where a 1500uF 16V Elecon cap was (12v rail) I put a 2200uF 25V Marcon, it'll last for ages in there. 220uF 10v caps for the 5v rail? Put in some SamWha 330uF 16v caps. I've never had a problem doing things that way.

Now I get it, put good in, get good out, right? That dvd player would last the next 20 years before problems with Japanese caps, but as I said, nobodys gonna be using it.

What about the guitar tube amps? Aren't you gonna ruin the tone? If they're wanting the amp restored to factory to use in a studio, it'll get NOS parts or new equivalents to make it as perfect as can be. However, if it's being left in a car all year round, going out to gigs as a just for fun amp, nobody wants to pay 100$ for a proper recap, they wanna pay between 15-30$ and they're happy. If that's not possible, either they'll abandon the PoS or pay a slightly higher parts fee and we'll fix it quick.

Now I'm not trying to sound like a story, "Oh poor you, making little to nothing off of recaps because that's all the business you get" No, I could easily go the route of all the other techs in the area and just put in whatever was cheapest on eBay that month. Or do what I'm at least trying to do, is to find a 5/10 cap that isn't the best, nor is it the worst, but will do it's job well if loaded lightly or within spec.

Considering CapXon is used extensively in Behringer and Mackie powered PAS and subs, and they never seem to fail there, I'd have no problem doing whatever it is Behringer and Mackie are doing do get them to last. And if I can get them at a cheaper than CapXon price with just a different namem I'd happily do that.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:24 PM   #12
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

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Originally Posted by jazzie366 View Post
If I use cheaper components, I just oversize them. Where a 1500uF 16V Elecon cap was (12v rail) I put a 2200uF 25V Marcon, it'll last for ages in there. 220uF 10v caps for the 5v rail? Put in some SamWha 330uF 16v caps. I've never had a problem doing things that way.
You hope.

The problem with crappy capacitor brands is not only that they rarely meet their specs, but rather their inconsistency to meet any specs. This is a direct result of the materials that crappy cap brands use. As such, a crap cap brand may have one batch that meets their datasheet specs and is stable/reliable over time. Then, they may have a batch that does not meet specs, but is still reliable. And further, they may also have a batch that does not meet specs and goes bad with or without use due to contaminated materials that quickly make the cap gas out.

So you can't really rely on the fact that you can just oversize the crappy caps and everything will work out.

If you really are trying to save money on caps, then perhaps the best thing to do is mix and match good cap brands with crap cap brands - that is, use good caps where it matters the most (i.e. switching outputs and high-heat places) and use the crappy caps elsewhere.

I've done that for some of my PSUs that I cared enough to fix, but not enough to fix 100% right. In one, for example, I had one 6.3V 2200 uF Panasonic FM and one 10V 2200 uF Fuhjyyu TNR for the 5VSB output filter. The idea here was, that even if the Fuhjyuu cap failed, I still would have the Panasonic cap "holding the front".

So perhaps stock up on a few common cap values from the good Japanese manufacturers, and use crappy caps for the rest of the bulk. But going all head-forward with crappy caps brands is not a good idea, IMO.

Personally, in most cases, I'd rather use 85C general purpose old stock Japanese capacitors than 105C "LOW ESR" caps from a no-name China/Taiwan manufacturer. At least with the former, I know they will be consistent in meeting some low-end specs. With the latter, there's no telling. So that's why we suggest you avoid the no-name brands.
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Never understood why anyone plays favorites with crap brands - no matter which go first, in the end they are likely to die before their theoretical EOL failure, so it's best not to trust any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
The problem with crappy capacitor brands is not only that they rarely meet their specs, but rather their inconsistency to meet any specs. This is a direct result of the materials that crappy cap brands use. As such, a crap cap brand may have one batch that meets their datasheet specs and is stable/reliable over time. Then, they may have a batch that does not meet specs, but is still reliable. And further, they may also have a batch that does not meet specs and goes bad with or without use due to contaminated materials that quickly make the cap gas out.
Exactly.

The materials mined and sourced in China for electrolytics, including the anodic/cathodic aluminum foil, the aluminum case, the aluminum lead tab, the plastic sleeve, and even the electrolytic chemicals all contain a vast number of impurities compared to those in Japan. Such impurities in the electrolyte and foils are bound to cause issues such as galvanic couples which will produce gaseous hydrogen, even without use, especially without any oxidizers in the electrolyte to clean up any excessive hydrogen gas. The Chinese brands also tend to use cheaper plated aluminum foil which is more marginal and less capable of taking voltages higher than the rated voltage.

Combine that with poor QC and you'll never know which batches do or don't have impure and/or bad materials just by looking at them or even measuring them (the capacitors in question). And the issues don't end with the impure materials - weak rubber sealing materials will degrade faster due to oxidization, and they will dramatically increase the diffusion and evaporation rate of the electrolyte which will result in silent failure. Cheap electrolyte, IE electrolyte with a smaller concentrated portion (conductive acids, base, salts) and larger unconcentrated portion (the free vapor in the solution) will further increase the diffusion rate as well as the vapor pressure and allow for the capacitors to dry out (or bulge in high heat applications as heat does accelerate all such failures) much sooner than they should.

Yes, even the Japanese brands have had a few bad series and batches of capacitors, but those series have been long discontinued, or even fixed before discontinuation. That's a big difference from the Taiwanese / Chinese brands who never fess up to such errors and continue to make them as they are. And no-name brands should never be trusted because they don't have a proven track record.

Quote:
I've done that for some of my PSUs that I cared enough to fix, but not enough to fix 100% right. In one, for example, I had one 6.3V 2200 uF Panasonic FM and one 10V 2200 uF Fuhjyyu TNR for the 5VSB output filter. The idea here was, that even if the Fuhjyuu cap failed, I still would have the Panasonic cap "holding the front".
Well, I'm not so sure if even that is a surefire plan. I've seen Deltas with a large mixture of LTEC / CapXon and Japanese capacitors stop working due to a single bad LTEC or CapXon dying, albeit more often in hot-running PSUs from them.

Quote:
Personally, in most cases, I'd rather use 85C general purpose old stock Japanese capacitors than 105C "LOW ESR" caps from a no-name China/Taiwan manufacturer. At least with the former, I know they will be consistent in meeting some low-end specs. With the latter, there's no telling. So that's why we suggest you avoid the no-name brands.
I wouldn't ever use 85C capacitors in an output filter, but that's just me.

Last edited by Wester547; 06-17-2017 at 11:44 PM..
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

What burns my bacon is a lot of people from forums I read think a cap is only bad if they see it spewing its guts out or bloated tops or bungs blown out when in fact that symptom is after the fact. Chinese caps were made to fail not survive.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

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Well, I'm not so sure if even that is a surefire plan. I've seen Deltas with a large mixture of LTEC / CapXon and Japanese capacitors stop working due to a single bad LTEC or CapXon dying, albeit more often in hot-running PSUs from them.
True.

I actually have a Delta unit here like that too. It has Chemicon caps on the 12V filter, but Ltec or CapXon on the 5V and 3.3V rails. The ones on the 5V rail have bulged badly and are preventing the PSU from working at all.

That said, if Delta did the trick I mentioned, it could probably have worked for a bit longer, albeit with more ripple on the output than usual.

So yes, it's best not to use crap caps if you can avoid it.

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I wouldn't ever use 85C capacitors in an output filter, but that's just me.
CRT monitors and TVs used them, and many lasted 20+ years.

Don't underestimate the endurance of 85C-rated general purpose Japanese caps. They may not have the best ESR and ripple current specs, but they are still tough cookies.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

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Originally Posted by momaka
CRT monitors and TVs used them, and many lasted 20+ years.

Don't underestimate the endurance of 85C-rated general purpose Japanese caps. They may not have the best ESR and ripple current specs, but they are still tough cookies.
It probably isn't that hard to manufacture a half-decent 85C capacitor. It's much harder to make a decent, low impedance 105C capacitor. Even the crappy brands' 85C capacitors, although they still age faster, last a surprisingly long time in CRT monitors and TVs before failure. Not as long as the Japanese brands by quite a stretch but they do much better in that application than their 105C low-impedance equivalents do in SMPS PSUs and LCD PSUs especially, the latter of which run insanely hot.

PCBONEZ and kaboom observed that Nichicon's VR series didn't last long in hot applications, but that may have less to do with the temperature rating and more to do with the fact that most of the failures were 6.3mm and 5mm diameter parts on Intel motherboards. Unless the seal is compromised, true dry out doesn't quite occur in good capacitors that are 20cm or larger (10x20mm, 8x25mm, 12.5x16mm, or above) unless they run too hot for too long, or unless they're really old (20-30+ years), by which time the rubber bung has deteriorated enough for it to be possible. 15 years is still considered to be the maximum practical life time for rubber-sealed electrolytics by all manufacturers.

Last edited by Wester547; 06-18-2017 at 07:49 PM..
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
You hope.

The problem with crappy capacitor brands is not only that they rarely meet their specs, but rather their inconsistency to meet any specs. This is a direct result of the materials that crappy cap brands use. As such, a crap cap brand may have one batch that meets their datasheet specs and is stable/reliable over time. Then, they may have a batch that does not meet specs, but is still reliable. And further, they may also have a batch that does not meet specs and goes bad with or without use due to contaminated materials that quickly make the cap gas out.

So you can't really rely on the fact that you can just oversize the crappy caps and everything will work out.

If you really are trying to save money on caps, then perhaps the best thing to do is mix and match good cap brands with crap cap brands - that is, use good caps where it matters the most (i.e. switching outputs and high-heat places) and use the crappy caps elsewhere.

I've done that for some of my PSUs that I cared enough to fix, but not enough to fix 100% right. In one, for example, I had one 6.3V 2200 uF Panasonic FM and one 10V 2200 uF Fuhjyyu TNR for the 5VSB output filter. The idea here was, that even if the Fuhjyuu cap failed, I still would have the Panasonic cap "holding the front".

So perhaps stock up on a few common cap values from the good Japanese manufacturers, and use crappy caps for the rest of the bulk. But going all head-forward with crappy caps brands is not a good idea, IMO.

Personally, in most cases, I'd rather use 85C general purpose old stock Japanese capacitors than 105C "LOW ESR" caps from a no-name China/Taiwan manufacturer. At least with the former, I know they will be consistent in meeting some low-end specs. With the latter, there's no telling. So that's why we suggest you avoid the no-name brands.
I find it hard to believe that ALL of these brands are designing them to fail intentionally. I know they're definitely doing all they can to keep on the cheap side, and they don't care for quality much, but does that mean that all of the companies that are certified to produces products of a minimum standard or better are faking that by violating the standards until after they get the certification?

Basically what I'm saying is they get the cert by making a good batch of caps, then just shit out whatever they produce from there on after.

I find that hard to believe because as we saw with Dell's engineers, they had made it known there would be problems with the caps before they produced them but did it anyways. That's obviously lack of care, but for those companies who used brands like Teapo and CapXon on their mobos/psus, I find it hard to believe all of them intentionally did it knowing they'd fail as Dell did.

Also, I do have japanese caps such as Sanyo, Vishay/Sprague, Nichicon and Rubycon for things like motherboards or in places where audio quality matters. Such as in the Arcam AVR280 that had bloated Elcon caps, I made a order from Mouser for Nichicon KA caps.

In that instance, I'd use audio caps. However if someone brought me let's say a logitech 2.1 systems from Walfart that's capped with "KYS" and "R&C" caps that a few have failed in, why even bother putting anything decent in? just take the 1000uF filter cap, put in a 2200uF and it'll probably last a bit longer.

Also I see caps like Yihcon get a lot of shit because they failed a lot, but then I open a Netgear power supply from a near 10 year old router and all the caps are Yihcon and meet spec easily. However, they were quite oversized for the application, a 33uF 400V cap in a psu meant for under 20W is a bit excessive, but not bad. Output filter caps were 820uF. That's why I oversize them, because in the time that I've seen things come around, I've seen that heavily oversizing caps seems to be an easy way to stop any problems.

Also here's a question for you because you seem to know a lot.

How could Dell have known those NCC caps they were going to use on their motherboards were going to fail? Is there a way to analyze the electrolyte and see what it'll do in the future?
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Just ordered NCC KYB 2200/25 early this month, gonna cost me <25c. If chinese crap is normally 15c, than only idiot will buy that when he can get 10000 hours-rated Chemi-Cons for 25c.

Now 5c looks nice but that's gonna be some ber-crap, one of those types which bulges in a drawer even within its rated shelf time…at room temperature
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Old 06-24-2017, 12:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: So I got an offer from a capacitor company...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzie366 View Post
I find it hard to believe that ALL of these brands are designing them to fail intentionally. I know they're definitely doing all they can to keep on the cheap side, and they don't care for quality much, but does that mean that all of the companies that are certified to produces products of a minimum standard or better are faking that by violating the standards until after they get the certification?
Planned obsolescence largely parttakes the electronics industry and I'm all but certain that extends to the world of the electrolytic capacitors (although the capacitor "plague" is nowhere nigh as omnipresent as it once was, the issue still exists everywhere but modern motherboards and modern graphics cards). Poor and negligent QC practices and sourcing the cheapest raw materials possible (as many of the Taiwanese / Chinese brands do) are all sure signs that the companies producing such capacitors certainly aren't designing them to last very long before failure.

Quote:
Basically what I'm saying is they get the cert by making a good batch of caps, then just shit out whatever they produce from there on after.
That sounds about right, although I'm dubious the above mentioned brands are particularly interested in meeting any certifications when they have to produce hundreds of millions of crapacitors per month.

Quote:
I find that hard to believe because as we saw with Dell's engineers, they had made it known there would be problems with the caps before they produced them but did it anyways. That's obviously lack of care, but for those companies who used brands like Teapo and CapXon on their mobos/psus, I find it hard to believe all of them intentionally did it knowing they'd fail as Dell did.
Yup, unsealed documents from the A.I.T. lawsuit filed around that time unveiled that Dell definitely knew about the exceptionally failure-prone batch of Nichicon HN capacitors produced between 2003 and 2004, and kept quiet about it anyway. The companies that use such cheap capacitors aren't interested in extending the life of their electronics no matter what brands they use, only in getting the device to last past the warranty, which in and of itself could be considered an engineering feat to marvel in this day and age of planned obsolescence and consumerism.

Quote:
In that instance, I'd use audio caps. However if someone brought me let's say a logitech 2.1 systems from Walfart that's capped with "KYS" and "R&C" caps that a few have failed in, why even bother putting anything decent in? just take the 1000uF filter cap, put in a 2200uF and it'll probably last a bit longer.
Well, I know you have make ends meet, but I'm sure the customer would appreciate it more if your repair was done with quality capacitors so as to make certain the same failure won't happen cyclically.

Quote:
Also I see caps like Yihcon get a lot of shit because they failed a lot, but then I open a Netgear power supply from a near 10 year old router and all the caps are Yihcon and meet spec easily. However, they were quite oversized for the application, a 33uF 400V cap in a psu meant for under 20W is a bit excessive, but not bad. Output filter caps were 820uF. That's why I oversize them, because in the time that I've seen things come around, I've seen that heavily oversizing caps seems to be an easy way to stop any problems.
Bad caps aren't called bad caps because they're guaranteed to fail. They are called bad caps because you can't predict their behavior.

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Also here's a question for you because you seem to know a lot.

How could Dell have known those NCC caps they were going to use on their motherboards were going to fail? Is there a way to analyze the electrolyte and see what it'll do in the future?
Of course there exists laboratory equipment such as mass spectrometry which can tell you more than you'd ever want to know about the electrolytic composition. Is Dell, or Foxconn, or whoever, interested in foresaking a "precious" NOS batch of capacitors in the name of science when neither company takes any interest in designing their computers to last long anyway? I'd guess not.

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Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
Just ordered NCC KYB 2200/25 early this month, gonna cost me <25c. If chinese crap is normally 15c, than only idiot will buy that when he can get 10000 hours-rated Chemi-Cons for 25c.

Now 5c looks nice but that's gonna be some ber-crap, one of those types which bulges in a drawer even within its rated shelf timeat room temperature
Well, I'm probably sounding like a broken record at this point, but since you mentioned NCC in the same post, NCC has produced two such series that are known to behave exactly in that manner (KZG is rated for 1,000 hours at 105C with no voltage applied and KZJ 500 hours under the same conditions; neither series seemed to fulfill their shelf life, nor their load life). But at least they discontinued those and are now only producing good caps. Can't say that about most non-Japanese brands.
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