Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

[y_not]

In looking for a new Iron, I have researched lots & lots of fancy digital soldering stations and all the pros and cons, eventually leading to the venerable, tried & true Weller WTC/TC/TCP series station+iron. The kind /w the Curie magnetic switch where the tips determine the temp.
These are still in use today & new models still being manufactured, for over 50yrs. now. Not to mention their service-ability and the fact they don't need to be calibrated periodically like the digital units do.

I figure if it's good enough to manufacture the Apollo LEM @ Grumman in the 60's, then it's good enough for today's work too.
They never had a problem /w the LEM, unlike the CSM.

The units I'm looking at are the base station units. Really, I'm going to buy an older, used unit as their life expectancy is in the neighborhood of 20-25yrs. before needing any major service; element, transformer, cord, etc..

The max temp, determined by tip type is 800deg F. Tips come in 600/700/800 temps. The iron is rated for 48w, the base station is 65w. I assume this is for standby power to maintain a constant temperature for element heat up surges, yes?

Here's my question..
- Is 800F enough to do Pb-free motherboards, even ones with large grounding planes like server boards & Apple's?
*I'm unsure as I get conflicting information and it seems all the fancy digital units for Pb-free SMD rework/reflow are 850F. Will the unit/series I'm looking at be fine?

Second question set.
Lastly, I read over at Green Bay Professional Packet Radio that the magnetically controlled units are bad because the magnet can damage components.
Really??? Magnets aren't that hard on electronics, unless it's a CRT tube you're talking about. Surely this is utter hog wash, considering NASA (talk about sensitive equipment) used them and every other major tech company in the 60's. Thoughts?


Thanks for all your help and thanks for looking/reading.

[budm]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

I still have mine since 1974 and use it every day. When I need to remove component for the board that use Pb free, I always add more regular solder to what I try to remove. I use wide tip PTC 7, 8. When work on multi-layer board, I heat up the board with hair dryer or heat gun first.
" magnetically controlled units are bad because the magnet can damage components." That is a good one, LOL. How about the magnetic field from transformer, speaker magnets, etc.
Static damage is due to un-grounded tip is more to worry about.

[euromatlox]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

It's of course important to know something about solder alloys.

http://store.curiousinventor.com/gui...ind_of_solder/

I mostly use silver containing alloy (SnAg3.5Cu0.9), diameter 0.7mm, for lead-free soldering. I have also Sn96.5AgCu0.5, diameter 1.0mm for some heavier soldering. Comparing those, SnAg3.5Cu0.9 seems to flow slightly better, and 0.7mm is more convenient diameter.

About a year ago I bought Antex 660TC with 50W iron, and have now succesfully replaced some motherboard caps with it. I previously used a 100W standard iron for that purpose..it was faster for the job, but had be really careful with it. My old workhorse, Antex 25W standard iron, was not good for mb capacitor replacement.

High wattage helps desoldering, but I would not use anything much over 50W for (small-size) electronic component soldering, unless I want to fry something

[y_not]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

Thank you for all the great info. It's good to hear from someone with some experience under their belt that these unit's are as good as everyone seems to say they are. Mainly just wanted to confirm that they'll work for doing modern PC boards, even lead free. Although I'm not sure how much of those I'll be doing, mostly older Pb based boards. But I'd still like it to be able to handle it and know it can. If not, at least it'll ROCK for what I need it for now.

Something tells me I'll be collecting quite a few soldering tools before the year is out.
Hot-Air SMD, Hot-Air Vacuum Desolder, board holding contraptions, tools, picks, whatever.


Here's something I wrote up. Take a look if you would. If the math is boring or you don't care that much, just skip down to the summary.
But read it if you can please. I put A LOT of time into it.

WTCPS Manual - Same as WTCPT just ESD changes to iron ocurred in later 'PT' model.

Recovery Time (from 100°F Drop) /w PTA7 Tip = 11 sec.

If you look at the latest Hakko station (FX888) in the same price range, it's a bit more ambiguous. But with some careful study of the graph I have determined the following.
https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...ec7f64bc43.pdf

Hakko has chosen, for this test, to use a tip temp of 350°C/662°F.... seems awfully low.
Looking at the last pink dip (1st Graph @ L.). The lowest point is 84.375°C from full tip temp.
Calculation Note: Each of those tiny dots between the horizontal 50°C indicator lines is approx. 3.125°C, as there are 16 of them between each 50°C line.

That nets us 265.625°C/510.125°F. A bit too far of a drop for our comparison needs toward Weller.
So, going up the graph a bit in temp rise, we want a 100°F drop from Hakko's chosen tip temp.
This would be 2 dots down from the 300°C mark to equal approx. 294°C/562°F.
Counting out horizontally on the: "time in sec. bar", we see that this is approx. 20 sec to full tip temp. Where the pink almost fully merges with the black 350°c reference line.
Note: Pink is the new unit, blue is the old model it replaced.
Comparing that to the desired 100°F drop point, it's an nearly immeasurable number of finite seconds to the right. Maybe 2sec? That's a guess really, as the lowest dip on the pink looks slightly to the left of 5sec center anyway. O_o

Let's give Hakko the benefit of the doubt, for lack of exact figures as opposed to the somewhat forgiving, approximate chart.
We have a 152°F drop that it needs to recover from. 662-510=152°F.
Let's assume that's really 20sec as it's hard to tell down to the second.
Divide 152 / 20 = 7.6°F rise per second on tip temp recovery.
If we don't give them the benefit of the doubt...
100 / 20 = 5°F rise per second.

Weller's unit, we'll do the same way.
They quote 11 sec rise from 100°F drop to normal tip temp.
Divide 100 / 11 = 9.09°F rise per second.

So the Hakko at best/worst is an: 7.6°F/rise/sec > 5°F/rise/sec.
Vs. the Weller's: 9.09°F/rise/sec.
That's just a hare shy of an improvement of 20%!!!!
At Hakko's worst = 82%!!!!!!!

That's almost double!!
That's absolutely phenomenal!
I'm blown AWAY!!

Yeah, that's a lot of math, but it's bonehead math, I hate complex mind-numbing math.

Thoughts?
How do the modern "electronically" controlled stations stack up?
I had heard from a few people here and there, especially one particular older gentleman of whom I have the utmost respect and reverence for his knowledge and prowess in repairing Apple logic boards, that Hakko's hot air stuff is great. Their soldering irons are JUNK! Don't use them he said. Unfortunately he's gone, either retired and not talking to colleagues anymore, or he passed on. :'( If so... RIP John Barnum. *Places flowers at grave, hugs his wife whom I got to know a bit*

PS. It looks like this one: (FM-2027 pencil), is about a 12.5sec thermal recovery time from the same tip temps under the same conditions. Makes sense, seeing as the element is in the tip, not the iron. The resolution of the results graph leaves much to be desired, so I did my best /w an overlay grid.
http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fm203.html

34% better than the Weller, but it's STUPIDLY expensive!!
Out of my league.

[y_not]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

When work on multi-layer board, I heat up the board with hair dryer or heat gun first.

Please do explain more. I know about pre-heaters, but I only thought they were necessary for BGA re-work.
Heat guns I have heard are rather dangerous due to their unregulated output and potential to damage the board. But I know someone personally, a good friend of mine, whom re-flowed his XBox360 BGA GPU using a heatgun. But they "the people the provide those services for a fee", say it's bad. Cold joint, excess solder whiskers, damage to the GPU/Board, etc...

But I'm always open to being enlightened and learning more. Industry lies are rampant, more so in ours than any.

IE. "Don't touch the chips on a memory module, you'll fry it. If you did, it's bad, you'll need to replace it." HAHA!! VERY FUNNY!!
The things I have heard in my 15+ years of work in the IT/Computer repair field. LOL

" magnetically controlled units are bad because the magnet can damage components." That is a good one, LOL. How about the magnetic field from transformer, speaker magnets, etc.
Static damage is due to un-grounded tip is more to worry about.

Yeah, isn't that just awesome? I mostly posted that for laughs.

[redwire]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

I find the Weller stations have a lot more heat than the Hakkos, when doing any rework or big through-hole stuff. I've used Hakko 926,936,851,888 and Weller WTCPN, WTCPS.

Note the newer Hakko's (FX-951, FX-888) have a combo heater element+tip which are more expensive to replace (~$25) and a new station comes WITHOUT one now I know what that smilie is for...
Warms up fast, in seconds. They are good for small SMT stuff, but a bit dainty to wrestle with an electrolytic on a pcb gnd fill.
Hakko had problems with their tip coatings on Pb free and obsoleted the T7 (element+tip) line, replaced it with the T15; the tip plating needed Pb to last.

[y_not]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

I find the Weller stations have a lot more heat than the Hakkos, when doing any rework or big through-hole stuff. I've used Hakko 926,936,851,888 and Weller WTCPN, WTCPS.

Haha, that's quite funny. Confirms what I have heard about Hakko's irons. They're good for fine SMD work, but not much else. Even then, I understand these Wellers do just fine for that. That is, unless you're working in a high throughput production environment.

I'm definitely working on getting one. Trying to track down a good used unit that isn't $50-$80 /w freight. So overpriced, considering how many are out there and how old they are.
I almost got a practically brand new WTCPT /w 3x1lb rolls of Kester 67/33 .031, 2 flush cutters and 3 new tips: for $65+pri mail @ about $16.
But I stupidly didn't bid on it!! DOH! I was waiting for it to get closer to the end, not realizing it had a buy-it now option. GRRR

In looking at the used ones, does it matter if the exposed barrel part, the sleeve /w the nut that holds the tips on, is all dark brown/grey and nasty/crusty looking? I know you can buy a new sleeve/barrel for like $5-6 and make it all purdy again. But does this indicate that the previous owner was really hard on it and didn't take care of it, thus a much higher potential of failure internally?

I know the parts are all readily available and user replaceable, etc..
But I'd prefer and not have to do that right out of the gate. Ya know?

To my knowledge, the FX888 doesn't use those now element tips, just the std. style. They are re-designed for better heat though.

[y_not]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

To recap and add a short question, since I know everyone, myself included, is busy.. busy!

#1 - How much does it matter on barrel condition above the tip of an iron?
*Any cause for concern if it looks like it has been in a fiery battle of good & evil?

I'm looking at an 808, read so many rave reviews on it.
A 470 series station based vacuum unit has a slightly higher suction flow 12L/min>10L/min. A 472D is 15L/min. With the same vacuum pressure.

#2 - I'm wondering if it's tomato/tomaato?

[y_not]

Re: Soldering iron temps: Pb-free/Pb based

Should I post my last question, post #8, in a new topic? Normally I wouldn't do so as it is still related, but only in the sense of removing components and what tool(s) is/are best.
Other than that, it has nothing to do with my original thread title.

Normally I'd just change the title to append my new loosely related additions. But it appears I can't do that on this forum.

Please advise mods. Thx.

PS. If there is a way to change the title, let me know where it is that I have missed it.