best cheap/free scores 1.1

[momaka]

Originally Posted by Topcat

I wasn't talking to you....I was talking to the M$ parrot that spoos about 7 all the time...

He may as well be, but I think he has a point... Allow me to quote:

Originally Posted by shovenose

Mac OS is 100% a piece of shit!
Linux is 75% a piece of shit.
So Windows (10% shit) it is!!

Sorry RD and KeriJane

[Topcat]

probably right on the desktop platform.....but Linux is not 75% shit. It runs this site, remember!! As a server, Linux stomps M$ in every aspect!

[Agent24]

The truth is that no single OS can do everything well.

[ratdude747]

Picked up a Brand new (box opened, drive still sealed) LiteOn DH-20A4H08C IDE Lightscribe DVD burner for $9. It Even had the extra (white) bezel and the still sealed bag with the software/manuals.

It seems to run well... But the lightscribe support in linux is Mostly (but not all the way) there... It takes soem command line work to open the GUIs to do it but I hear it does work (I have no lightscribe blanks so I can't confirm that).

I may keep it as tradebait. For now it is in my main rig...

[Shocker]

I could be wrong on this, but one reason why Barracuda ATA IVs easily amassed reallocated sectors -might- be because, in all their infinite wisdom, Seagate saw fit to hinder the heat output of the drive by installing the second rendition of "SeaShield" over the PCB - or that piece of rubber and heat insulator called "SeaShield".

The only Seagate drives I know of with a rubber heat-insulating wrapper (which isn't really a "Shield" per se...) were the 5400RPM U Series. They included it for shock protection. I'm not sure I would remove it though because it also covers the top of the drive (and therefore has the label). They never put that type of thing on a Barracuda (7200RPM) drive, probably because with the higher speed (and number of platters, in the first two models) it would get too hot. Instead the Barracuda drives had a metal Shield with foam backing for electrial insulation.

I don't know how much it affects the temperature of the platters but I do know that it makes the PCB itself much hotter (I mean 45-50C hot when the hard drive itself is 10-15C cooler, judging by how hot the PCB end of the drive felt to touch... by contrast, a ST3120026A I have that doesn't have SeaShield does not feel hot in that area at all, at the same temperatures).

Of course that also happens to be more of a problem as Barracuda ATA IV uses a BGA microcontroller. You'd think that if they went to the expense of adding a large metal shield that they would also use it to cool down the board components. Instead they let it insulate them...resulting in the microcontroller and motor driver getting hot enough to discolour the foam touching them . I also know of a member (severach) who seems to hate BGAs with a passion. Guess what I see coming???

7200.7 uses a QFP microcontroller so no need to worry about thermal stress doing that in.

Technically speaking, you could just screw that thing off when first you had a Barracuda ATA IV, but after so many on/off and heat/cold cycles, and after so much power on time, I don't even know if it'd come off without compromising the drive (I imagine it must have hardened by then).

How would it get stuck to the drive such that you can't remove it without damage???

I'd say just take it off. The only useful purpose it ever served was ESD protection. (And that was more to protect Seagate from user damaged drives being RMAed than anything.)

Unfortunate Seagate did that because in my experience those were some of the most quiet and long lasting drives ever. They were some of the last Barracudas to support AAM, which was nice.

I have an ST360021A (not the renowned ST340016A). With AAM off (which I did for a short time, before switching it back on) seeks were a bit noisy, but nothing unbearable (I didn't test the performance in that state, but I assume about 14ms?). With AAM on seeks were rather quieter (but still noticeable). Average access time was 15.5ms when tested with h2benchw (though the maximum was rather astronomical at 194ms ).

I also have ST380011A and it's noticeably quieter, slightly quicker average access (14.9ms) than ST360021A with AAM (and the maximum is much more reasonable at 26.1ms). Then I have ST340014A, which is very quiet (unnoticeable seeks). So quiet that I'd actually recommend it for a silent PC (as long as you're fine with PATA only, small capacity and outdated technology). Either of those drives would of course have higher transfer rates, run cooler, and potentially be more reliable than a Barracuda ATA IV.

WD800JD-00LSA0 (a 2-head 80GB FDB drive like ST380011A, but with 8MB cache and SATA) with AAM off is about equal for performance and power consumption. Idle noise is somewhat louder/hollower (due to lighter top cover), but it doesn't add up to much when you factor in fan noise in a complete PC. Seek noise without AAM...I didn't notice it in-situ (I have 2 of these in my current PC), but I will assume it being louder than ST340014A. Seek noise with AAM may well be quieter still, but I don't feel it worth the performance sacrifice. Another drive worthy of being used in a silent PC. I'd even recommend it over the Seagate opposition (ST380013AS). There are some reservations though. One of them is that if you buy one on eBay and don't check the suffix, you stand a chance of getting a nasty ball-bearing drive. Then where does the advantage go??? At least with the Seagate drive you know what you're getting. (Unless the product was misrepresented by an eBay seller, though I doubt they'd go to the trouble to do that for such an old obsolete drive.)

The only other drive I have that may be of interest to someone interested in silencing is Maxtor 6L040L2.

6L = series
040 = capacity
L = FDB (J would be BB)
2 = number of heads

I haven't actually used it in a PC though so I can't comment on seek noise.

[shovenose]

Originally Posted by Topcat

probably right on the desktop platform.....but Linux is not 75% shit. It runs this site, remember!! As a server, Linux stomps M$ in every aspect!

I should have clarified.
For DESKTOPS and LAPTOPS, what I said holds true. for SERVERS it's LINUX all the way! Windows Server is STUPID SHIT!!!
Linux runs all my sites too, and I love it for that. But for the consumer/business desktop/laptop environment Linux is just not ready!

[Junk Parts]

I have to jump in this one on the side of one flavor of Linux. I used Mint Gloria in a dual boot with my old Dell. It worked just fine. The OS was very much like windows xp but with different names for things. I did have to add a few add ons to get it to do what I wanted to do. It was free and it works. There is nothing wrong with that in my book.

[Agent24]

Originally Posted by Shocker

The only Seagate drives I know of with a rubber heat-insulating wrapper (which isn't really a "Shield" per se...) were the 5400RPM U Series. They included it for shock protection. I'm not sure I would remove it though because it also covers the top of the drive (and therefore has the label). They never put that type of thing on a Barracuda (7200RPM) drive, probably because with the higher speed (and number of platters, in the first two models) it would get too hot. Instead the Barracuda drives had a metal Shield with foam backing for electrial insulation.


Of course that also happens to be more of a problem as Barracuda ATA IV uses a BGA microcontroller. You'd think that if they went to the expense of adding a large metal shield that they would also use it to cool down the board components. Instead they let it insulate them...resulting in the microcontroller and motor driver getting hot enough to discolour the foam touching them

With the drives I've used, I've noticed it's the real old (and noisy!) Barracudas with metal SeaShield that seem the best, but the ones that came after I have had many fail with high reallocated sector issues - even the ones with no shield at all!

[Shocker]

Could it be an effect of population???

Approximately how many of the first three Barracuda ATA generations do you have, compared to the later (quiet) models???

Surely no Seagate drive can blow it harder than the 7200.11 with its firmware fuckup. (But I've used two 7200.12s and two 7200.11s with CC firmware. Both 7200.11s and one 7200.12 are dead. I've had better luck with older drives, including Seagates.) Other than that it's all a matter of YMMV. User X may get 100 drives and not have 1 fail, user Y may get 10 drives and have 5 fail.

I did notice a bit of a pattern. As I remember dead 7200.7s that I saw had ST for the microcontrollers. The ones that worked fine had Agere. Did you notice something like this???

That aside, the 7200.7 has been fine for me and I don't feel the inclination to swap a drive which starts at 40GB for one which maxes out at 40GB.

Perhaps Barracuda ATA III FDB really is "the best" but it's too small and not all that common. As for quietness? Idle did seem pretty quiet (though with a somewhat metallic character). Seeks? Been a while since I had it but I think they were a bit noisy, not unbearable though. (I didn't check whether AAM was on or off.)

Unfortunately you can't tell whether it has ball bearings or fluid-dynamic bearings from the model number...

[Agent24]

It's about equal between the two. In fact if anything I probably have more of the older drives.

I'm not saying you should swap anything for anything. I'm just stating what I have observed - which is that many of my Seagate 7200.7 - 7200.10 have either failed outright (won't detect\hang machine at POST) or have many (1000+) bad sectors - while most from the older generations are still going just fine.

I know the sample size for a single user is small, but the trend I noticed seems consistent.

[Shocker]

You never know. Mine might last 80,000 hours. And yours might be eating dust tomorrow.

Two more ST340014As I've seen with the ST microcontroller (or is it more of an ASIC???) were both unable to write data . Interestingly a third hard drive that I got with those was another ST340014A, but with the Agere chip (and a later firmware, but that's not what I'm discussing). It worked fine. The drive I have now is #4 as I gave the third one away. I also encountered an ST380011A (again with ST chips in vision) that tried to read data, but couldn't. Rather than simply clicking constantly, it had somewhat random (mis)behaviour. Whatever. As for non-Seagate failures, I had a WD400BB-00JHA0 (83GB/platter FDB drive like the one I mentioned above). It didn't have any mechanical problems, but the circuit board went AWOL.

I have a personal rule-of-thumb that if the drive has survived 30,000 hours, it'll probably stay that way (and that number is conservative), unless abused.

If this trend of drives with Agere chips failing to fail, and ST chips dying in normal use, continues...

...you know what I'm going to say.

[flinx]

In one day I got (for free). about 30 15" lcd monitors, 10 to 15 17" lcd monitors, and around 10 19" lcd monitors, 20 to 30 desktop computers, a pile of printers, misc other stuff.

Almost all of the 15" monitors worked, I fixed about 10 that did not. most of the 17" and 19" lcd monitors worked, I fixed a few that did not. Some I junked as they were REAL old. I sold all the 15" monitors at a yard sale, at the time I scrapped all the computers and printers.

I have done this several times (always free stuff).

[ratdude747]

The same store that I got the $5 Wonder from yielded 2 more epic scores today.

I found two things:

1. ($2.50) Bearcat 210xl Police scanner:





The only fault with it is that it is missing the antenna... I can get a new on eBay for $12 shipped. It otherwise seems to work... the one knob is partially busted but is still 100% functional. It looks like it sat for a while based on that the 9V backup battery expired in 1998.

2. ($5) Sanyo Betamax VCR:



Based on the datecode it was made on March 5, 1981. The only fault with it so far is that the Vacuum tube display has some wear (some dimmed segments). I bought this because my mom has a beta tape somewhere of my Grandpa giving a Gideon's Address/sermon that we'd like to digitize. That said, until that tape turns up, I can't do much beyond powering it up.

Good scores?

[BigTroll]

wow that betamax is amazing, i like how it doesn't have the 70s wood look.

[Wester547]

Originally Posted by Shocker

Of course that also happens to be more of a problem as Barracuda ATA IV uses a BGA microcontroller. You'd think that if they went to the expense of adding a large metal shield that they would also use it to cool down the board components. Instead they let it insulate them...resulting in the microcontroller and motor driver getting hot enough to discolour the foam touching them . I also know of a member (severach) who seems to hate BGAs with a passion. Guess what I see coming???

Wow... that's bad. I hate BGA too, along with QFN and CSP (guess what - RDRAM - which runs 55C-60C hot without active cooling - is based on the CSP package - great job Intel). But I hate lead-free solder much more. BGA is still far more durable than lead-free solder. And well, I guess I understand the shield - Seagate wanted to preclude users from accidently inducing static and possibly shorting the PCB. A flaccid but somewhat understandable attempt.

Originally Posted by Shocker

7200.7 uses a QFP microcontroller so no need to worry about thermal stress doing that in.

I wonder if the 7200.8 and 7200.9 series do as well? Since Seagate went to lead-free (or RoHS compliant) hard drives with the 7200.8 series. All my 7200.7s have a protection chip - a ST BUX small chip somewhere on it, and I've heard those are notorious for eventually smoking and averting the drive from operation unless soldered off. So the 7200.7 drives were not exactly free of PCB issues either. Only a 250GB 7200.9 I have is, maybe - though it has a 25 series flash ROM chip from ST that may or may not fail.

Originally Posted by Shocker

I'd say just take it off. The only useful purpose it ever served was ESD protection. (And that was more to protect Seagate from user damaged drives being RMAed than anything.)

Maybe, but... you said it could have caused discoloration which could lead to further risk.

Originally Posted by Shocker

I have an ST360021A (not the renowned ST340016A). With AAM off (which I did for a short time, before switching it back on) seeks were a bit noisy, but nothing unbearable (I didn't test the performance in that state, but I assume about 14ms?). With AAM on seeks were rather quieter (but still noticeable). Average access time was 15.5ms when tested with h2benchw (though the maximum was rather astronomical at 194ms ). I also have ST380011A and it's noticeably quieter, slightly quicker average access (14.9ms) than ST360021A with AAM (and the maximum is much more reasonable at 26.1ms). Then I have ST340014A, which is very quiet (unnoticeable seeks). So quiet that I'd actually recommend it for a silent PC (as long as you're fine with PATA only, small capacity and outdated technology). Either of those drives would of course have higher transfer rates, run cooler, and potentially be more reliable than a Barracuda ATA IV.

The ST340016A is hardly unreliable. Still much more reliable than any drive from today, especially without SeaShield. Not sure what causes their high scores of reallocations - I have one that's rock solid at 50 reallocations (though with 73 data address marker errors and 291 errors in the S.M.A.RT. log, but note that its last error was at 3,050 hours of use where as it's now at 16,000 and 6,500 power cycles). Another one hasn't gone past 1 reallocation and 4 errors in the S.M.A.R.T. log and it's at 17,000 hours and 4,500 power cycles.

Originally Posted by Shocker

WD800JD-00LSA0 (a 2-head 80GB FDB drive like ST380011A, but with 8MB cache and SATA) with AAM off is about equal for performance and power consumption. Idle noise is somewhat louder/hollower (due to lighter top cover), but it doesn't add up to much when you factor in fan noise in a complete PC. Seek noise without AAM...I didn't notice it in-situ (I have 2 of these in my current PC), but I will assume it being louder than ST340014A. Seek noise with AAM may well be quieter still, but I don't feel it worth the performance sacrifice.

I don't notice the difference in performance with AAM on or off considering it only affects random access time numbers by milliseconds. My guess is, though, that AAM being enabled is easier on the read/write heads, maybe, even if slightly. Though, it also might lead to slight temperature increases because the read/write heads take longer to do their job at that point.

Originally Posted by Shocker

Another drive worthy of being used in a silent PC. I'd even recommend it over the Seagate opposition (ST380013AS). There are some reservations though. One of them is that if you buy one on eBay and don't check the suffix, you stand a chance of getting a nasty ball-bearing drive. Then where does the advantage go??? At least with the Seagate drive you know what you're getting. (Unless the product was misrepresented by an eBay seller, though I doubt they'd go to the trouble to do that for such an old obsolete drive.)

The only other drive I have that may be of interest to someone interested in silencing is Maxtor 6L040L2.

6L = series
040 = capacity
L = FDB (J would be BB)
2 = number of heads

I haven't actually used it in a PC though so I can't comment on seek noise.

Some Maxtors I've seen use a ST Smooth chip, which is bad in saying the least...

Not to lay doubt to you, but how do you know that the ST340016A has a BGA microcontroller chip? Is it because it's an ST chip?

[Shocker]

I wonder if the 7200.8 and 7200.9 series do as well?

I'm pretty sure every subsequent Seagate drive does too, though the recent models may have BGA RAM chips (dictated by availability).

Since Seagate went to lead-free (or RoHS compliant) hard drives with the 7200.8 series.

you stupid politicians.

All my 7200.7s have a protection chip - a ST BUX small chip somewhere on it, and I've heard those are notorious for eventually smoking and averting the drive from operation unless soldered off. So the 7200.7 drives were not exactly free of PCB issues either.

Do they blow even if the power supply has 0.1% voltage regulation and 3mV of ripple???

Maybe, but... you said it could have caused discoloration which could lead to further risk.

It was just the foam (where it was touching the chips) that discoloured, and not drastically so. Still, the microcontroller must be getting too hot for its own good.

The ST340016A is hardly unreliable. Still much more reliable than any drive from today, especially without SeaShield. Not sure what causes their high scores of reallocations - I have one that's rock solid at 50 reallocations (though with 73 data address marker errors and 291 errors in the S.M.A.RT. log, but note that its last error was at 3,050 hours of use where as it's now at 16,000 and 6,500 power cycles). Another one hasn't gone past 1 reallocation and 4 errors in the S.M.A.R.T. log and it's at 17,000 hours and 4,500 power cycles.

Sorry again for being unclear - that was a relative comparison, not saying the Barracuda IV sucks. Also, I have to say that I'd only put 7200.7 higher up on the list if it has (A) an Agere combo controller and (B) SH6950 driving the spindle/VCM. Yeah, that's a major reservation.

Oh and by the way - my ST360021A has 0 reallocations.

I don't notice the difference in performance with AAM on or off considering it only affects random access time numbers by milliseconds. My guess is, though, that AAM being enabled is easier on the read/write heads, maybe, even if slightly. Though, it also might lead to slight temperature increases because the read/write heads take longer to do their job at that point.

I understand that. But if you can't hear the drive even with AAM off, might as well have the extra few performance points. (Unless you really are made of fear...)

Not to lay doubt to you, but how do you know that the ST340016A has a BGA microcontroller chip? Is it because it's an ST chip?

By removing the SeaShield. How else???

EDIT: Oh, and by the way:

WD800JD-00LSA0 (a 2-head 80GB FDB drive like ST380011A, but with 8MB cache and SATA) with AAM off is about equal for performance and power consumption. Idle noise is somewhat louder/hollower (due to lighter top cover), but it doesn't add up to much when you factor in fan noise in a complete PC. Seek noise without AAM...I didn't notice it in-situ (I have 2 of these in my current PC), but I will assume it being louder than ST340014A. Seek noise with AAM may well be quieter still, but I don't feel it worth the performance sacrifice.

Another drive worthy of being used in a silent PC. I'd even recommend it over the Seagate opposition (ST380013AS). There are some reservations though. One of them is that if you buy one on eBay and don't check the suffix, you stand a chance of getting a nasty ball-bearing drive. Then where does the advantage go??? At least with the Seagate drive you know what you're getting. (Unless the product was misrepresented by an eBay seller, though I doubt they'd go to the trouble to do that for such an old obsolete drive.)

The only other drive I have that may be of interest to someone interested in silencing is Maxtor 6L040L2.

6L = series
040 = capacity
L = FDB (J would be BB)
2 = number of heads

I haven't actually used it in a PC though so I can't comment on seek noise.

This wasn't the correct quoting sequence.

This is:

WD800JD-00LSA0 (a 2-head 80GB FDB drive like ST380011A, but with 8MB cache and SATA) with AAM off is about equal for performance and power consumption. Idle noise is somewhat louder/hollower (due to lighter top cover), but it doesn't add up to much when you factor in fan noise in a complete PC. Seek noise without AAM...I didn't notice it in-situ (I have 2 of these in my current PC), but I will assume it being louder than ST340014A. Seek noise with AAM may well be quieter still, but I don't feel it worth the performance sacrifice. Another drive worthy of being used in a silent PC. I'd even recommend it over the Seagate opposition (ST380013AS). There are some reservations though. One of them is that if you buy one on eBay and don't check the suffix, you stand a chance of getting a nasty ball-bearing drive. Then where does the advantage go??? At least with the Seagate drive you know what you're getting. (Unless the product was misrepresented by an eBay seller, though I doubt they'd go to the trouble to do that for such an old obsolete drive.)

The only other drive I have that may be of interest to someone interested in silencing is Maxtor 6L040L2.

6L = series
040 = capacity
L = FDB (J would be BB)
2 = number of heads

I haven't actually used it in a PC though so I can't comment on seek noise.

[Wester547]

Originally Posted by Shocker

Do they blow even if the power supply has 0.1% voltage regulation and 3mV of ripple???

No idea how it happens. I imagine, though, that power cycles expedite the process.

Originally Posted by Shocker

It was just the foam (where it was touching the chips) that discoloured, and not drastically so. Still, the microcontroller must be getting too hot for its own good.

Unless you put active cooling over the drive.

Originally Posted by Shocker

Sorry again for being unclear - that was a relative comparison, not saying the Barracuda IV sucks. Also, I have to say that I'd only put 7200.7 higher up on the list if it has (A) an Agere combo controller and (B) SH6950 driving the spindle/VCM. Yeah, that's a major reservation.

SH6950s are good. Every 7200.7 and 7200.9 I have has it, as do some of my older Seagate drives. I've seen other Seagate drives have a ST chip in place of that, though...

Originally Posted by Shocker

Oh and by the way - my ST360021A has 0 reallocations.

I panic whenever I see a drive that has 0 reallocations suddenly have 1 or more because then either 1) the drive is dying quickly or 2) the drive is dying slowly.

Originally Posted by Shocker

I understand that. But if you can't hear the drive even with AAM off, might as well have the extra few performance points. (Unless you really are made of fear...)

I can hear my ST340016A with AAM off. But that's because it's worse for wear at this point so it's become louder. That said, it spins up faster than 7200.7-7200.10 drives.

Originally Posted by Shocker

By removing the SeaShield. How else???

So the PCB itself is BGA?

[Shocker]

SH6950s are good. Every 7200.7 and 7200.9 I have has it, as do some of my older Seagate drives.

And my ST360021A. (I don't think SMOOTHs existed on Barracuda IVs. Of the 7200.7s I mentioned, only the dead ST380011A has a SMOOTH.)

So the PCB itself is BGA?

[Agent24]

Originally Posted by Wester547

I panic whenever I see a drive that has 0 reallocations suddenly have 1 or more because then either 1) the drive is dying quickly or 2) the drive is dying slowly.

From manufacture day all drives are dying slowly.

[Wester547]

Originally Posted by Shocker

You meant only the microcontroller/combo controller, then? And I know all drives die slowly. But I mean, die quickly, or die super quickly. :P